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Bitcoin Newcomers FAQ - Please read!

Welcome to the /Bitcoin Sticky FAQ

You've probably been hearing a lot about Bitcoin recently and are wondering what's the big deal? Most of your questions should be answered by the resources below but if you have additional questions feel free to ask them in the comments.
It all started with the release of the release of Satoshi Nakamoto's whitepaper however that will probably go over the head of most readers so we recommend the following videos for a good starting point for understanding how bitcoin works and a little about its long term potential:
Some other great resources include Lopp.net, the Princeton crypto series and James D'Angelo's Bitcoin 101 Blackboard series.
Some excellent writing on Bitcoin's value proposition and future can be found at the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute.
Some Bitcoin statistics can be found here and here. Developer resources can be found here. Peer-reviewed research papers can be found here.
Potential upcoming protocol improvements and scaling resources here and here.
The number of times Bitcoin was declared dead by the media can be found here (LOL!)

Key properties of Bitcoin

Where can I buy bitcoins?

Bitcoin.org and BuyBitcoinWorldwide.com are helpful sites for beginners. You can buy or sell any amount of bitcoin (even just a few dollars worth) and there are several easy methods to purchase bitcoin with cash, credit card or bank transfer. Some of the more popular resources are below, also check out the bitcoinity exchange resources for a larger list of options for purchases.
Here is a listing of local ATMs. If you would like your paycheck automatically converted to bitcoin use Bitwage.
Note: Bitcoins are valued at whatever market price people are willing to pay for them in balancing act of supply vs demand. Unlike traditional markets, bitcoin markets operate 24 hours per day, 365 days per year. Preev is a useful site that that shows how much various denominations of bitcoin are worth in different currencies. Alternatively you can just Google "1 bitcoin in (your local currency)".

Securing your bitcoins

With bitcoin you can "Be your own bank" and personally secure your bitcoins OR you can use third party companies aka "Bitcoin banks" which will hold the bitcoins for you.
Note: For increased security, use Two Factor Authentication (2FA) everywhere it is offered, including email!
2FA requires a second confirmation code to access your account making it much harder for thieves to gain access. Google Authenticator and Authy are the two most popular 2FA services, download links are below. Make sure you create backups of your 2FA codes.
Google Auth Authy OTP Auth
Android Android N/A
iOS iOS iOS

Watch out for scams

As mentioned above, Bitcoin is decentralized, which by definition means there is no official website or Twitter handle or spokesperson or CEO. However, all money attracts thieves. This combination unfortunately results in scammers running official sounding names or pretending to be an authority on YouTube or social media. Many scammers throughout the years have claimed to be the inventor of Bitcoin. Websites like bitcoin(dot)com and the btc subreddit are active scams. Almost all altcoins (shitcoins) are marketed heavily with big promises but are really just designed to separate you from your bitcoin. So be careful: any resource, including all linked in this document, may in the future turn evil. Don't trust, verify. Also as they say in our community "Not your keys, not your coins".

Where can I spend bitcoins?

Check out spendabit or bitcoin directory for millions of merchant options. Also you can spend bitcoin anywhere visa is accepted with bitcoin debit cards such as the CashApp card. Some other useful site are listed below.
Store Product
Gyft Gift cards for hundreds of retailers including Amazon, Target, Walmart, Starbucks, Whole Foods, CVS, Lowes, Home Depot, iTunes, Best Buy, Sears, Kohls, eBay, GameStop, etc.
Spendabit, Overstock and The Bitcoin Directory Retail shopping with millions of results
ShakePay Generate one time use Visa cards in seconds
NewEgg and Dell For all your electronics needs
Bitwa.la, Coinbills, Piixpay, Bitbill.eu, Bylls, Coins.ph, Bitrefill, LivingRoomofSatoshi, Coinsfer, and more Bill payment
Menufy, Takeaway and Thuisbezorgd NL Takeout delivered to your door
Expedia, Cheapair, Destinia, Abitsky, SkyTours, the Travel category on Gyft and 9flats For when you need to get away
Cryptostorm, Mullvad, and PIA VPN services
Namecheap, Porkbun Domain name registration
Stampnik Discounted USPS Priority, Express, First-Class mail postage
Coinmap and AirBitz are helpful to find local businesses accepting bitcoins. A good resource for UK residents is at wheretospendbitcoins.co.uk.
There are also lots of charities which accept bitcoin donations.

Merchant Resources

There are several benefits to accepting bitcoin as a payment option if you are a merchant;
If you are interested in accepting bitcoin as a payment method, there are several options available;

Can I mine bitcoin?

Mining bitcoins can be a fun learning experience, but be aware that you will most likely operate at a loss. Newcomers are often advised to stay away from mining unless they are only interested in it as a hobby similar to folding at home. If you want to learn more about mining you can read more here. Still have mining questions? The crew at /BitcoinMining would be happy to help you out.
If you want to contribute to the bitcoin network by hosting the blockchain and propagating transactions you can run a full node using this setup guide. If you would prefer to keep it simple there are several good options. You can view the global node distribution here.

Earning bitcoins

Just like any other form of money, you can also earn bitcoins by being paid to do a job.
Site Description
WorkingForBitcoins, Bitwage, Cryptogrind, Coinality, Bitgigs, /Jobs4Bitcoins, BitforTip, Rein Project Freelancing
Lolli Earn bitcoin when you shop online!
OpenBazaar, Purse.io, Bitify, /Bitmarket, 21 Market Marketplaces
/GirlsGoneBitcoin NSFW Adult services
A-ads, Coinzilla.io Advertising
You can also earn bitcoins by participating as a market maker on JoinMarket by allowing users to perform CoinJoin transactions with your bitcoins for a small fee (requires you to already have some bitcoins.

Bitcoin-Related Projects

The following is a short list of ongoing projects that might be worth taking a look at if you are interested in current development in the bitcoin space.
Project Description
Lightning Network Second layer scaling
Blockstream, Rootstock and Drivechain Sidechains
Hivemind and Augur Prediction markets
Tierion and Factom Records & Titles on the blockchain
BitMarkets, DropZone, Beaver and Open Bazaar Decentralized markets
JoinMarket and Wasabi Wallet CoinJoin implementation
Coinffeine and Bisq Decentralized bitcoin exchanges
Keybase Identity & Reputation management
Abra Global P2P money transmitter network
Bitcore Open source Bitcoin javascript library

Bitcoin Units

One Bitcoin is quite large (hundreds of £/$/€) so people often deal in smaller units. The most common subunits are listed below:
Unit Symbol Value Info
bitcoin BTC 1 bitcoin one bitcoin is equal to 100 million satoshis
millibitcoin mBTC 1,000 per bitcoin used as default unit in recent Electrum wallet releases
bit bit 1,000,000 per bitcoin colloquial "slang" term for microbitcoin (μBTC)
satoshi sat 100,000,000 per bitcoin smallest unit in bitcoin, named after the inventor
For example, assuming an arbitrary exchange rate of $10000 for one Bitcoin, a $10 meal would equal:
For more information check out the Bitcoin units wiki.
Still have questions? Feel free to ask in the comments below or stick around for our weekly Mentor Monday thread. If you decide to post a question in /Bitcoin, please use the search bar to see if it has been answered before, and remember to follow the community rules outlined on the sidebar to receive a better response. The mods are busy helping manage our community so please do not message them unless you notice problems with the functionality of the subreddit.
Note: This is a community created FAQ. If you notice anything missing from the FAQ or that requires clarification you can edit it here and it will be included in the next revision pending approval.
Welcome to the Bitcoin community and the new decentralized economy!
submitted by BitcoinFan7 to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

The 7th floor, mastering yourself and riding the higher energies

Previous post.
- So what you in for, brother?
- Eternity.
- Ooooh. That's a really long time. Must've did some really bad shit.
- Yeah. I sold my soul.
- Hope you got something good for it.
- As a matter of fact I got nothing for it.
- Well that's a really bad deal if you ask me.
- Well I'm not asking you.
- Doesn't really matter though. Can't sell your soul anyway.
- Oh really? Why do you say that?
- Cause it doesn't really belong to you in the first place. No way no how.
- So who does it belong to?
- It belongs to God. That universal spirit that animates and binds all things in existence.
Hmph. Devil gonna try to confuse you, but that's her game. But in the end you gonna see clear who and what you are and what you're here to do. Now, you gon' make some mistakes along the way, everybody does. If you just open up your heart and open up your mind heh...you'll get it.
- Who are you?
- Just a friend brother. Just a really good friend.
Scene from the movie Bedazzled
There's a lot of spiritual things on this sub and spiritual and mystic knowledge interwoven with science. At the highest levels, it's just knowledge, knowledge much of humanity is not ready for. At the highest levels real science and real spirituality need no conflict whatsoever. But, the ancients lived in a very different world and the focus was on faith and opening of the heart. Many words and ideas did not exist, many yogis had insights into phenomenal things but then had to explain in words that are just... not enough. Stories and allegories and creatures both real and made up. Still they were very clever and created incredible ways of transferring the knowledge, keeping it and so on.
Who here can without googling and beyond a shadow of a doubt explain how the cellphone works? You kind of know but you don't really know it. Some people do, schematics exist, there's these towers that beam around energies, idk man, all I know is I neeeed 7G so I can download holograms by my mind OK? Leave me alone! (lol)
If you tried to explain it to people from 200 years ago they would absolutely know - not think - that you're crazy, possibly even dangerous. People can talk across the oceans and the mountains with some squarish device? Instantly send photos? Oh sure! And I'm guessing they can even fly around while eating tasty foods and looking down at the Earth? You need your dome checked.
But anyway, as you start to master your sexual energies by first not being a complete out of control degenerate staring at all the titties and assess and eating way too much food and garbage food etc, you're now starting to totally change your power levels, your blood purity and state etc. This is all explained here brilliantly by some great people. And the knowledge is out there in many ways, check out my previous posts to find books as well to download.
So, what of the higher energies? Once you've mastered yourself to a degree on the lower levels you will start to naturally move into those realms. You are anyway attracting and creating things, even in your worst state. In your optimal state, things move faster and better, but also all the previous work now come to shine and if you haven't done it you will create havoc.
The movie Bruce Almighty brilliantly and in a comical way deals with this.
Though the movie is on one level a simple comedy, anyone well versed in the ancient lore, gnostic knowledge and his own experiences will clearly see the many deeper messages.
Bruce Nolan is a television field reporter for Eyewitness News on WKBW-TV in Buffalo, New York, but desires to be the news anchorman. When Bruce is passed over for promotion by his rival, Evan Baxter, he becomes furious, his actions leading to his dismissal from the station, followed by a series of misfortunes. Bruce complains to God that "He's the one that should be fired".
Bruce receives a message on his pager, which takes him to an empty warehouse where he meets God.
In the empty room at the floor level, he sees this sign.
https://preview.redd.it/ey07b2fapno51.png?width=684&format=png&auto=webp&s=878c28a8463a2395fb27a4d171133c800ff6d202
There doesn't seem to be anything else in the room except the sign "stairway" and a guy moping the floor. The guy is God himself, portrayed as Morgan Freeman.
https://preview.redd.it/qc8svcj2qno51.png?width=723&format=png&auto=webp&s=06b57c8e0c052df21471128b3767083989149707
An interesting conversation plays out:
- You’re looking for room 7.
- Yeah, I figured.
- Want me to even those up for you? (Bruce's pants)
- How do I get to room 7?
- That’d be on the 7 th floor.
(this is obviously obvious, but that's why it's emphasised. The main character wants to get to the 7th floor - have control and success in his life - but keeps avoiding the obvious - the climb up there)
- The stairs are right over there.
- I’d rather take the elevator. (a shortcut, like all the other shortcuts in his life)
- Out of order.
- Love the stairs though, they were my second choice.
- You mind giving me a hand with this floor?
(God asks him for help cleaning up the floor but Bruce of course is "busy". He postpones it and God says - I'll hold you to it)
- What? That’s good. Are you serious? Oh, I… I’m kinda busy. Amm… Raincheck?
- I’ll hold you to it.
(....)
- I’m trying to fix a light.
- Tell me if it’s working.
- Yeah. Seems to be. Kinda bright though.
- Yeah. It is to most people who spend their lives in the dark trying to hide from me.
- Oh, the elevator’s broken, huh?
- Yeah, but… I’ll get around to it.
https://preview.redd.it/pp5nkzmwrno51.png?width=608&format=png&auto=webp&s=b54136584c5b72945a697f0179129dbb4e3dfcee
On the 7th floor there's only a ladder leading up to an opening - the 8th floor above the 7th chakra from which God, still dressed as the janitor, comes down. The light is stunning, super-powerful.
God then reveals to Bruce that he knows everything, and by that he means literally everything - every thought he ever had, every lie, truth, bluff, etc. It's symbolically all in a file cabinet. The last file is a taunt to God given by Bruce. Now, God gives Bruce the joystick of his life - the shortcut that he's been looking for. He gives him utter and direct power over reality itself, except other people's free will. As everyone carries in him a spark of that One, they have freedom of choice - that's the rules of the game.
He also can't just tell anyone he has these powers.
Bruce is initially jubilant with the powers, using them for personal gain, such as by getting his job back, and impressing his girlfriend, Grace Connelly. Bruce finds ways of using his powers around Buffalo to cause miraculous events to occur at otherwise mundane events that he covers, such as discovering Jimmy Hoffa's body or causing a meteor to harmlessly land near a cook-off, earning him the name "Mr. Exclusive". Bruce then causes Evan to embarrass himself on-air, causing Evan to be fired in favor of Bruce as the new anchor. During this, Bruce continues to hear voices in his head. He later re-encounters God, who explains the voices are prayers, meant for God, that Bruce must deal with. Bruce creates a computerized email-like system to receive the prayers and respond but finds that the influx is far too many for him to handle —even though God has stated that Bruce is only receiving prayers from the Buffalo area— and sets the program to answer every prayer Yes automatically.
Bruce attends a party celebrating his promotion. When Grace arrives, she finds Bruce kissing his co-anchor, Susan Ortega, after she forcefully comes on to him, and quickly leaves. Bruce follows her, trying to use his powers to convince her to stay but cannot influence her free will. As Bruce looks around, he realizes that Buffalo has fallen into chaos due to his actions: parts of the city believe the Apocalypse is nearly upon Earth due to the meteor strikes, while a large number of people, all having prayed to win the multi-million dollar lottery and finding they all won reducing their prize to a few dollars, have started rioting in the streets. Bruce returns to God, who explains that He cannot solve all the problems and Bruce must figure out a way himself. Bruce returns to his computer system at his home and goes about answering prayers as best he can. As Bruce reads through them, he finds a prayer from Grace, wishing for his success and well-being. As Bruce reads it, another prayer from Grace arrives, this one wishing not to be in love with him anymore.
Bruce is stunned and walks alone on a highway, asking God to take back his powers and letting his fate be in his hands. Bruce is suddenly hit by a truck and regains his consciousness in a white void. God appears, and He asks Bruce what he really wants; Bruce admits that he only wants to make sure Grace finds a man that would make her happy. God agrees, and Bruce finds himself in the hospital, where doctors help him recover. Grace arrives, in which she and Bruce finally rekindle their relationship and later become engaged. Following his recovery, Bruce returns the anchor position to Evan and goes back to his field reporting, but decides to take more pleasure in the simple stories.
We see that Bruce is overwhelmed and both his inner and outer reality start to totally collapse and cause pain. He has taken a massive shortcut to too much power and responsibility that he can't even handle when it comes to one city, much less the world. His failure is even bigger considering he literally has God powers and still fails - that's double the failure.
Interestingly, the actor Jim Carrey claimed famously on the Oprah show he used the Law Of Attraction himself.
On higher energies and higher positions, you also have higher challenges and responsibilities. People look up to you. Just because your eyes sparkle and you can now strangely influence people, what are you doing and where will it lead? The higher you go, people also expect you to be some kind of Christ like figure, with no mistakes and blemish, which is even harder. Martin Luther for example was a sure retainer, in the sense that he didn't fap, but he cheated on his wife. He was a great leader, he inspired millions and changed history - but he was human.
Malcolm X famously said that in prison he "lost his sight (he started wearing glasses from reading too much) but he gained his vision!"
Gandhi did his crazy niece experiment and of course did some mistakes (now mind you, weaker and lower people will not only judge you, they will even judge from the future, living in a totally different time).
Connor Mcgregor is very probably a retainer in the sense he understands the benefits but he also leads a violent life and drinks etc, so he's riding these high energies and often corrupting them. That is why his life is in turmoil and has ups and downs: he's accused of rape over and over, he donates 10000$ to a dying kid, he punches and old man for disagreeing with him, he builds a shelter for homeless, he embarrasses himself in a fight etc. etc.
"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too;
you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons."
Corinthians 10:21
The yogis have a brilliant story as well, thousands of years old, of a man waking up in heaven (astral reality where things immediately happen) and he turns it into hell because his mind is untrained.
I hope at least the knowledge of semen retention and self mastery will truly spread and start being applied more and more in the world.
Next post.
submitted by RebornInLife to Semenretention [link] [comments]

Transcript of discussion between an ASIC designer and several proof-of-work designers from #monero-pow channel on Freenode this morning

[08:07:01] lukminer contains precompiled cn/r math sequences for some blocks: https://lukminer.org/2019/03/09/oh-kay-v4r-here-we-come/
[08:07:11] try that with RandomX :P
[08:09:00] tevador: are you ready for some RandomX feedback? it looks like the CNv4 is slowly stabilizing, hashrate comes down...
[08:09:07] how does it even make sense to precompile it?
[08:09:14] mine 1% faster for 2 minutes?
[08:09:35] naturally we think the entire asic-resistance strategy is doomed to fail :) but that's a high-level thing, who knows. people may think it's great.
[08:09:49] about RandomX: looks like the cache size was chosen to make it GPU-hard
[08:09:56] looking forward to more docs
[08:11:38] after initial skimming, I would think it's possible to make a 10x asic for RandomX. But at least for us, we will only make an ASIC if there is not a total ASIC hostility there in the first place. That's better for the secret miners then.
[08:13:12] What I propose is this: we are working on an Ethash ASIC right now, and once we have that working, we would invite tevador or whoever wants to come to HK/Shenzhen and we walk you guys through how we would make a RandomX ASIC. You can then process this input in any way you like. Something like that.
[08:13:49] unless asics (or other accelerators) re-emerge on XMR faster than expected, it looks like there is a little bit of time before RandomX rollout
[08:14:22] 10x in what measure? $/hash or watt/hash?
[08:14:46] watt/hash
[08:15:19] so you can make 10 times more efficient double precisio FPU?
[08:16:02] like I said let's try to be productive. You are having me here, let's work together!
[08:16:15] continue with RandomX, publish more docs. that's always helpful.
[08:16:37] I'm trying to understand how it's possible at all. Why AMD/Intel are so inefficient at running FP calculations?
[08:18:05] midipoet ([email protected]/web/irccloud.com/x-vszshqqxwybvtsjm) has joined #monero-pow
[08:18:17] hardware development works the other way round. We start with 1) math then 2) optimization priority 3) hw/sw boundary 4) IP selection 5) physical implementation
[08:22:32] This still doesn't explain at which point you get 10x
[08:23:07] Weren't you the ones claiming "We can accelerate ProgPoW by a factor of 3x to 8x." ? I find it hard to believe too.
[08:30:20] sure
[08:30:26] so my idea: first we finish our current chip
[08:30:35] from simulation to silicon :)
[08:30:40] we love this stuff... we do it anyway
[08:30:59] now we have a communication channel, and we don't call each other names immediately anymore: big progress!
[08:31:06] you know, we russians have a saying "it was smooth on paper, but they forgot about ravines"
[08:31:12] So I need a bit more details
[08:31:16] ha ha. good!
[08:31:31] that's why I want to avoid to just make claims
[08:31:34] let's work
[08:31:40] RandomX comes in Sep/Oct, right?
[08:31:45] Maybe
[08:32:20] We need to audit it first
[08:32:31] ok
[08:32:59] we don't make chips to prove sw devs that their assumptions about hardware are wrong. especially not if these guys then promptly hardfork and move to the next wrong assumption :)
[08:33:10] from the outside, this only means that hw & sw are devaluing each other
[08:33:24] neither of us should do this
[08:33:47] we are making chips that can hopefully accelerate more crypto ops in the future
[08:33:52] signing, verifying, proving, etc.
[08:34:02] PoW is just a feature like others
[08:34:18] sech1: is it easy for you to come to Hong Kong? (visa-wise)
[08:34:20] or difficult?
[08:34:33] or are you there sometimes?
[08:34:41] It's kind of far away
[08:35:13] we are looking forward to more RandomX docs. that's the first step.
[08:35:31] I want to avoid that we have some meme "Linzhi says they can accelerate XYZ by factor x" .... "ha ha ha"
[08:35:37] right? we don't want that :)
[08:35:39] doc is almost finished
[08:35:40] What docs do you need? It's described pretty good
[08:35:41] so I better say nothing now
[08:35:50] we focus on our Ethash chip
[08:36:05] then based on that, we are happy to walk interested people through the design and what else it can do
[08:36:22] that's a better approach from my view than making claims that are laughed away (rightfully so, because no silicon...)
[08:36:37] ethash ASIC is basically a glorified memory controller
[08:36:39] sech1: tevador said something more is coming (he just did it again)
[08:37:03] yes, some parts of RandomX are not described well
[08:37:10] like dataset access logic
[08:37:37] RandomX looks like progpow for CPU
[08:37:54] yes
[08:38:03] it is designed to reflect CPU
[08:38:34] so any ASIC for it = CPU in essence
[08:39:04] of course there are still some things in regular CPU that can be thrown away for RandomX
[08:40:20] uncore parts are not used, but those will use very little power
[08:40:37] except for memory controller
[08:41:09] I'm just surprised sometimes, ok? let me ask: have you designed or taped out an asic before? isn't it risky to make assumptions about things that are largely unknown?
[08:41:23] I would worry
[08:41:31] that I get something wrong...
[08:41:44] but I also worry like crazy that CNv4 will blow up, where you guys seem to be relaxed
[08:42:06] I didn't want to bring up anything RandomX because CNv4 is such a nailbiter... :)
[08:42:15] how do you guys know you don't have asics in a week or two?
[08:42:38] we don't have experience with ASIC design, but RandomX is simply designed to exactly fit CPU capabilities, which is the best you can do anyways
[08:43:09] similar as ProgPoW did with GPUs
[08:43:14] some people say they want to do asic-resistance only until the vast majority of coins has been issued
[08:43:21] that's at least reasonable
[08:43:43] yeah but progpow totally will not work as advertised :)
[08:44:08] yeah, I've seen that comment about progpow a few times already
[08:44:11] which is no surprise if you know it's just a random sales story to sell a few more GPUs
[08:44:13] RandomX is not permanent, we are expecting to switch to ASIC friendly in a few years if possible
[08:44:18] yes
[08:44:21] that makes sense
[08:44:40] linzhi-sonia: how so? will it break or will it be asic-able with decent performance gains?
[08:44:41] are you happy with CNv4 so far?
[08:45:10] ah, long story. progpow is a masterpiece of deception, let's not get into it here.
[08:45:21] if you know chip marketing it makes more sense
[08:45:24] linzhi-sonia: So far? lol! a bit early to tell, don't you think?
[08:45:35] the diff is coming down
[08:45:41] first few hours looked scary
[08:45:43] I remain skeptical: I only see ASICs being reasonable if they are already as ubiquitous as smartphones
[08:45:46] yes, so far so good
[08:46:01] we kbew the diff would not come down ubtil affter block 75
[08:46:10] yes
[08:46:22] but first few hours it looks like only 5% hashrate left
[08:46:27] looked
[08:46:29] now it's better
[08:46:51] the next worry is: when will "unexplainable" hashrate come back?
[08:47:00] you hope 2-3 months? more?
[08:47:05] so give it another couple of days. will probably overshoot to the downside, and then rise a bit as miners get updated and return
[08:47:22] 3 months minimum turnaround, yes
[08:47:28] nah
[08:47:36] don't underestimate asicmakers :)
[08:47:54] you guys don't get #1 priority on chip fabs
[08:47:56] 3 months = 90 days. do you know what is happening in those 90 days exactly? I'm pretty sure you don't. same thing as before.
[08:48:13] we don't do any secret chips btw
[08:48:21] 3 months assumes they had a complete design ready to go, and added the last minute change in 1 day
[08:48:24] do you know who is behind the hashrate that is now bricked?
[08:48:27] innosilicon?
[08:48:34] hyc: no no, and no. :)
[08:48:44] hyc: have you designed or taped out a chip before?
[08:48:51] yes, many years ago
[08:49:10] then you should know that 90 days is not a fixed number
[08:49:35] sure, but like I said, other makers have greater demand
[08:49:35] especially not if you can prepare, if you just have to modify something, or you have more programmability in the chip than some people assume
[08:50:07] we are chipmakers, we would never dare to do what you guys are doing with CNv4 :) but maybe that just means you are cooler!
[08:50:07] and yes, programmability makes some aspect of turnaround easier
[08:50:10] all fine
[08:50:10] I hope it works!
[08:50:28] do you know who is behind the hashrate that is now bricked?
[08:50:29] inno?
[08:50:41] we suspect so, but have no evidence
[08:50:44] maybe we can try to find them, but we cannot spend too much time on this
[08:50:53] it's probably not so much of a secret
[08:51:01] why should it be, right?
[08:51:10] devs want this cat-and-mouse game? devs get it...
[08:51:35] there was one leak saying it's innosilicon
[08:51:36] so you think 3 months, ok
[08:51:43] inno is cool
[08:51:46] good team
[08:51:49] IP design house
[08:51:54] in Wuhan
[08:52:06] they send their people to conferences with fake biz cards :)
[08:52:19] pretending to be other companies?
[08:52:26] sure
[08:52:28] ha ha
[08:52:39] so when we see them, we look at whatever card they carry and laugh :)
[08:52:52] they are perfectly suited for secret mining games
[08:52:59] they made at most $6 million in 2 months of mining, so I wonder if it was worth it
[08:53:10] yeah. no way to know
[08:53:15] but it's good that you calculate!
[08:53:24] this is all about cost/benefit
[08:53:25] then you also understand - imagine the value of XMR goes up 5x, 10x
[08:53:34] that whole "asic resistance" thing will come down like a house of cards
[08:53:41] I would imagine they sell immediately
[08:53:53] the investor may fully understand the risk
[08:53:57] the buyer
[08:54:13] it's not healthy, but that's another discussion
[08:54:23] so mid-June
[08:54:27] let's see
[08:54:49] I would be susprised if CNv4 ASICs show up at all
[08:54:56] surprised*
[08:54:56] why?
[08:55:05] is only an economic question
[08:55:12] yeah should be interesting. FPGAs will be near their limits as well
[08:55:16] unless XMR goes up a lot
[08:55:19] no, not *only*. it's also a technology question
[08:55:44] you believe CNv4 is "asic resistant"? which feature?
[08:55:53] it's not
[08:55:59] cnv4 = Rabdomx ?
[08:56:03] no
[08:56:07] cnv4=cryptinight/r
[08:56:11] ah
[08:56:18] CNv4 is the one we have now, I think
[08:56:21] since yesterday
[08:56:30] it's plenty enough resistant for current XMR price
[08:56:45] that may be, yes!
[08:56:55] I look at daily payouts. XMR = ca. 100k USD / day
[08:57:03] it can hold until October, but it's not asic resistant
[08:57:23] well, last 24h only 22,442 USD :)
[08:57:32] I think 80 h/s per watt ASICs are possible for CNv4
[08:57:38] linzhi-sonia where do you produce your chips? TSMC?
[08:57:44] I'm cruious how you would expect to build a randomX ASIC that outperforms ARM cores for efficiency, or Intel cores for raw speed
[08:57:48] curious
[08:58:01] yes, tsmc
[08:58:21] Our team did the world's first bitcoin asic, Avalon
[08:58:25] and upcoming 2nd gen Ryzens (64-core EPYC) will be a blast at RandomX
[08:58:28] designed and manufactured
[08:58:53] still being marketed?
[08:59:03] linzhi-sonia: do you understand what xmr wants to achieve, community-wise?
[08:59:14] Avalon? as part of Canaan Creative, yes I think so.
[08:59:25] there's not much interesting oing on in SHA256
[08:59:29] Inge-: I would think so, but please speak
[08:59:32] hyc: yes
[09:00:28] linzhi-sonia: i am curious to hear your thoughts. I am fairly new to this space myself...
[09:00:51] oh
[09:00:56] we are grandpas, and grandmas
[09:01:36] yet I have no problem understanding why ASICS are currently reviled.
[09:01:48] xmr's main differentiators to, let's say btc, are anonymity and fungibility
[09:01:58] I find the client terribly slow btw
[09:02:21] and I think the asic-forking since last may is wrong, doesn't create value and doesn't help with the project objectives
[09:02:25] which "the client" ?
[09:02:52] Monero GUI client maybe
[09:03:12] MacOS, yes
[09:03:28] What exactly is slow?
[09:03:30] linzhi-sonia: I run my own node, and use the CLI and Monerujo. Have not had issues.
[09:03:49] staying in sync
[09:03:49] linzhi-sonia: decentralization is also a key principle
[09:03:56] one that Bitcoin has failed to maintain
[09:04:39] hmm
[09:05:00] looks fairly decentralized to me. decentralization is the result of 3 goals imo: resilient, trustless, permissionless
[09:05:28] don't ask a hardware maker about physical decentralization. that's too ideological. we focus on logical decentralization.
[09:06:11] physical decentralization is important. with bulk of bitnoin mining centered on Chinese hydroelectric dams
[09:06:19] have you thought about including block data in the PoW?
[09:06:41] yes, of course.
[09:07:39] is that already in an algo?
[09:08:10] hyc: about "centered on chinese hydro" - what is your source? the best paper I know is this: https://coinshares.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Mining-Whitepaper-Final.pdf
[09:09:01] linzhi-sonia: do you mine on your ASICs before you sell them?
[09:09:13] besides testing of course
[09:09:45] that paper puts Chinese btc miners at 60% max
[09:10:05] tevador: I think everybody learned that that is not healthy long-term!
[09:10:16] because it gives the chipmaker a cost advantage over its own customers
[09:10:33] and cost advantage leads to centralization (physical and logical)
[09:10:51] you guys should know who finances progpow and why :)
[09:11:05] but let's not get into this, ha ha. want to keep the channel civilized. right OhGodAGirl ? :)
[09:11:34] tevador: so the answer is no! 100% and definitely no
[09:11:54] that "self-mining" disease was one of the problems we have now with asics, and their bad reputation (rightfully so)
[09:13:08] I plan to write a nice short 2-page paper or so on our chip design process. maybe it's interesting to some people here.
[09:13:15] basically the 5 steps I mentioned before, from math to physical
[09:13:32] linzhi-sonia: the paper you linked puts 48% of bitcoin mining in Sichuan. the total in China is much more than 60%
[09:13:38] need to run it by a few people to fix bugs, will post it here when published
[09:14:06] hyc: ok! I am just sharing the "best" document I know today. it definitely may be wrong and there may be a better one now.
[09:14:18] hyc: if you see some reports, please share
[09:14:51] hey I am really curious about this: where is a PoW algo that puts block data into the PoW?
[09:15:02] the previous paper I read is from here http://hackingdistributed.com/2018/01/15/decentralization-bitcoin-ethereum/
[09:15:38] hyc: you said that already exists? (block data in PoW)
[09:15:45] it would make verification harder
[09:15:49] linzhi-sonia: https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/campdivision.com/PDF/Computers%20General/Privacy/bitcoin/meh/hashimoto.pdf
[09:15:51] but for chips it would be interesting
[09:15:52] we discussed the possibility about a year ago https://www.reddit.com/Monero/comments/8bshrx/what_we_need_to_know_about_proof_of_work_pow/
[09:16:05] oh good links! thanks! need to read...
[09:16:06] I think that paper by dryja was original
[09:17:53] since we have a nice flow - second question I'm very curious about: has anyone thought about in-protocol rewards for other functions?
[09:18:55] we've discussed micropayments for wallets to use remote nodes
[09:18:55] you know there is a lot of work in other coins about STARK provers, zero-knowledge, etc. many of those things very compute intense, or need to be outsourced to a service (zether). For chipmakers, in-protocol rewards create an economic incentive to accelerate those things.
[09:19:50] whenever there is an in-protocol reward, you may get the power of ASICs doing something you actually want to happen
[09:19:52] it would be nice if there was some economic reward for running a fullnode, but no one has come up with much more than that afaik
[09:19:54] instead of fighting them off
[09:20:29] you need to use asics, not fight them. that's an obvious thing to say for an asicmaker...
[09:20:41] in-protocol rewards can be very powerful
[09:20:50] like I said before - unless the ASICs are so useful they're embedded in every smartphone, I dont see them being a positive for decentralization
[09:21:17] if they're a separate product, the average consumer is not going to buy them
[09:21:20] now I was talking about speedup of verifying, signing, proving, etc.
[09:21:23] they won't even know what they are
[09:22:07] if anybody wants to talk about or design in-protocol rewards, please come talk to us
[09:22:08] the average consumer also doesn't use general purpose hardware to secure blockchains either
[09:22:14] not just for PoW, in fact *NOT* for PoW
[09:22:32] it requires sw/hw co-design
[09:23:10] we are in long-term discussions/collaboration over this with Ethereum, Bitcoin Cash. just talk right now.
[09:23:16] this was recently published though suggesting more uptake though I guess https://btcmanager.com/college-students-are-the-second-biggest-miners-of-cryptocurrency/
[09:23:29] I find it pretty hard to believe their numbers
[09:24:03] well
[09:24:09] sorry, original article: https://www.pcmag.com/news/366952/college-kids-are-using-campus-electricity-to-mine-crypto
[09:24:11] just talk, no? rumors
[09:24:18] college students are already more educated than the average consumer
[09:24:29] we are not seeing many such customers anymore
[09:24:30] it's data from cisco monitoring network traffic
[09:24:33] and they're always looking for free money
[09:24:48] of course anyone with "free" electricity is inclined to do it
[09:24:57] but look at the rates, cannot make much money
[09:26:06] Ethereum is a bloated collection of bugs wrapped in a UI. I suppose they need all the help they can get
[09:26:29] Bitcoin Cash ... just another get rich quick scheme
[09:26:38] hmm :)
[09:26:51] I'll give it back to you, ok? ha ha. arrogance comes before the fall...
[09:27:17] maye we should have a little fun with CNv4 mining :)
[09:27:25] ;)
[09:27:38] come on. anyone who has watched their track record... $75M lost in ETH at DAO hack
[09:27:50] every smart contract that comes along is just waiting for another hack
[09:27:58] I just wanted to throw out the "in-protocol reward" thing, maybe someone sees the idea and wants to cowork. maybe not. maybe it's a stupid idea.
[09:29:18] linzhi-sonia: any thoughts on CN-GPU?
[09:29:55] CN-GPU has one positive aspect - it wastes chip area to implement all 18 hash algorithms
[09:30:19] you will always hear roughly the same feedback from me:
[09:30:52] "This algorithm very different, it heavy use floating point operations to hurt FPGAs and general purpose CPUs"
[09:30:56] the problem is, if it's profitable for people to buy ASIC miners and mine, it's always more profitable for the manufacturer to not sell and mine themselves
[09:31:02] "hurt"
[09:31:07] what is the point of this?
[09:31:15] it totally doesn't work
[09:31:24] you are hurting noone, just demonstrating lack of ability to think
[09:31:41] what is better: algo designed for chip, or chip designed for algo?
[09:31:43] fireice does it on daily basis, CN-GPU is a joke
[09:31:53] tevador: that's not really true, especially in a market with such large price fluctuations as cryptocurrency
[09:32:12] it's far less risky to sell miners than mine with them and pray that price doesn't crash for next six months
[09:32:14] I think it's great that crypto has a nice group of asicmakers now, hw & sw will cowork well
[09:32:36] jwinterm yes, that's why they premine them and sell after
[09:32:41] PoW is about being thermodynamically and cryptographically provable
[09:32:45] premining with them is taking on that risk
[09:32:49] not "fork when we think there are asics"
[09:32:51] business is about risk minimization
[09:32:54] that's just fear-driven
[09:33:05] Inge-: that's roughly the feedback
[09:33:24] I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I think it's not so simple as saying "it always happens"
[09:34:00] jwinterm: it has certainly happened on BTC. and also on XMR.
[09:34:19] ironically, please think about it: these kinds of algos indeed prove the limits of the chips they were designed for. but they don't prove that you cannot implement the same algo differently! cannot!
[09:34:26] Risk minimization is not starting a business at all.
[09:34:34] proof-of-gpu-limit. proof-of-cpu-limit.
[09:34:37] imagine you have a money printing machine, would you sell it?
[09:34:39] proves nothing for an ASIC :)
[09:35:05] linzhi-sonia: thanks. I dont think anyone believes you can't make a more efficient cn-gpu asic than a gpu - but that it would not be orders of magnitude faster...
[09:35:24] ok
[09:35:44] like I say. these algos are, that's really ironic, designed to prove the limitatios of a particular chip in mind of the designer
[09:35:50] exactly the wrong way round :)
[09:36:16] like the cache size in RandomX :)
[09:36:18] beautiful
[09:36:29] someone looked at GPU designs
[09:37:31] linzhi-sonia can you elaborate? Cache size in RandomX was selected to fit CPU cache
[09:37:52] yes
[09:38:03] too large for GPU
[09:38:11] as I said, we are designing the algorithm to exactly fit CPU capabilities, I do not claim an ASIC cannot be more efficient
[09:38:16] ok!
[09:38:29] when will you do the audit?
[09:38:35] will the results be published in a document or so?
[09:38:37] I claim that single-chip ASIC is not viable, though
[09:39:06] you guys are brave, noone disputes that. 3 anti-asic hardforks now!
[09:39:18] 4th one coming
[09:39:31] 3 forks were done not only for this
[09:39:38] they had scheduled updates in the first place
[09:48:10] Monero is the #1 anti-asic fighter
[09:48:25] Monero is #1 for a lot of reasons ;)
[09:48:40] It's the coin with the most hycs.
[09:48:55] mooooo
[09:59:06] sneaky integer overflow, bug squished
[10:38:00] p0nziph0ne ([email protected]/vpn/privateinternetaccess/p0nziph0ne) has joined #monero-pow
[11:10:53] The convo here is wild
[11:12:29] it's like geo-politics at the intersection of software and hardware manufacturing for thermoeconomic value.
[11:13:05] ..and on a Sunday.
[11:15:43] midipoet: hw and sw should work together and stop silly games to devalue each other. to outsiders this is totally not attractive.
[11:16:07] I appreciate the positive energy here to try to listen, learn, understand.
[11:16:10] that's a start
[11:16:48] <-- p0nziph0ne ([email protected]/vpn/privateinternetaccess/p0nziph0ne) has quit (Quit: Leaving)
[11:16:54] we won't do silly mining against xmr "community" wishes, but not because we couldn'd do it, but because it's the wrong direction in the long run, for both sides
[11:18:57] linzhi-sonia: I agree to some extent. Though, in reality, there will always be divergence between social worlds. Not every body has the same vision of the future. Reaching societal consensus on reality tomorrow is not always easy
[11:20:25] absolutely. especially at a time when there is so much profit to be made from divisiveness.
[11:20:37] someone will want to make that profit, for sure
[11:24:32] Yes. Money distorts.
[11:24:47] Or wealth...one of the two
[11:26:35] Too much physical money will distort rays of light passing close to it indeed.
submitted by jwinterm to Monero [link] [comments]

/r/Bitcoin FAQ - Newcomers please read

Welcome to the /Bitcoin Sticky FAQ

You've probably been hearing a lot about Bitcoin recently and are wondering what's the big deal? Most of your questions should be answered by the resources below but if you have additional questions feel free to ask them in the comments.
Some great introductions for new users are My first bitcoin, Bitcoin explained and ELI5 Bitcoin. Also, the following videos are a good starting point for understanding how bitcoin works and a little about its long term potential:
Also have to give mention to Lopp.net, the Princeton crypto series and James D'Angelo's Bitcoin 101 Blackboard series. Some excellent writing on Bitcoin's value proposition and future can be found at the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute. Bitcoin statistics can be found here, here and here. Developer resources can be found here, here and here. Peer-reviewed research papers can be found here. Potential upcoming protocol improvements here. Scaling resources here. The number of times Bitcoin was declared dead by the media can be found here (LOL!), and of course Satoshi Nakamoto's whitepaper that started it all! :)
Key properties of bitcoin

Where can I buy bitcoins?

Bitcoin.org, BuyBitcoinWorldwide.com and Howtobuybitcoin.io are helpful sites for beginners. You can buy or sell any amount of bitcoin and there are several easy methods to purchase bitcoin with cash, credit card or bank transfer. Some of the more popular resources are below, also, check out the bitcoinity exchange resources for a larger list of options for purchases.
Bank Transfer Credit / Debit card Cash
Gemini Bitstamp LocalBitcoins
Bitstamp Bitit Mycelium LocalTrader
BitFinex Cex.io LibertyX
Cex.io CoinMama WallofCoins
Xapo Spectrocoin BitcoinOTC
Kraken Luno BitQuick
itBit
HitBTC
Bitit
Bisq (decentralized)
Luno
Spectrocoin
Here is a listing of local ATMs. If you would like your paycheck automatically converted to bitcoin use Bitwage.
Note: Bitcoins are valued at whatever market price people are willing to pay for them in balancing act of supply vs demand. Unlike traditional markets, bitcoin markets operate 24 hours per day, 365 days per year. Preev is a useful site that that shows how much various denominations of bitcoin are worth in different currencies. Alternatively you can just Google "1 bitcoin in (your local currency)".

Securing your bitcoins

With bitcoin you can "Be your own bank" and personally secure your bitcoins OR you can use third party companies aka "Bitcoin banks" which will hold the bitcoins for you.
Android iOs Desktop
Samouari BreadWallet Electrum
Another interesting use case for physical storage/transfer is the Opendime. Opendime is a small USB stick that allows you to spend Bitcoin by physically passing it along so it's anonymous and tangible like cash.
Note: For increased security, use Two Factor Authentication (2FA) everywhere it is offered, including email!
2FA requires a second confirmation code to access your account, usually from a text message or app, making it much harder for thieves to gain access. Google Authenticator and Authy are the two most popular 2FA services, download links are below. Make sure you create backups of your 2FA codes.
Google Auth Authy
Android Android
iOS iOS

Where can I spend bitcoins?

Check out spendabit or bitcoin directory for some good options, some of the more commons ones are listed below.
Store Product
Gyft Gift cards for hundreds of retailers including Amazon, Target, Walmart, Starbucks, Whole Foods, CVS, Lowes, Home Depot, iTunes, Best Buy, Sears, Kohls, eBay, GameStop, etc.
Steam, HumbleBundle, Games Planet, itch.io, g2g and kinguin For when you need to get your game on
Microsoft Xbox games, phone apps and software
Spendabit, Overstock, The Bitcoin Directory and BazaarBay Retail shopping with millions of results
ShakePay Generate one time use Visa cards in seconds
NewEgg and Dell For all your electronics needs
Bitwa.la, Coinbills, Piixpay, Bitbill.eu, Bylls, Coins.ph, Bitrefill, LivingRoomofSatoshi, Hyphen.to, Coinsfer, More #1, #2 Bill payment
Menufy, Takeaway, Thuisbezorgd NL, Pizza For Coins Takeout delivered to your door!
Expedia, Cheapair, Lot, Destinia, BTCTrip, Abitsky, SkyTours, Fluege the Travel category on Gyft and 9flats For when you need to get away
BitHost VPS service
Cryptostorm, Mullvad, and PIA VPN services
Namecheap, Porkbun For new domain name registration
Stampnik Discounted USPS Priority, Express, First-Class mail postage
Reddit Gold Premium membership which can be gifted to others
Coinmap and AirBitz are helpful to find local businesses accepting bitcoins. A good resource for UK residents is at wheretospendbitcoins.co.uk.
There are also lots of charities which accept bitcoin donations, such as Wikipedia, United Way, ACLU and the EFF. You can find a longer list here.

Merchant Resources

There are several benefits to accepting bitcoin as a payment option if you are a merchant;
If you are interested in accepting bitcoin as a payment method, there are several options available;

Can I mine bitcoin?

Mining bitcoins can be a fun learning experience, but be aware that you will most likely operate at a loss. Newcomers are often advised to stay away from mining unless they are only interested in it as a hobby similar to folding at home. If you want to learn more about mining you can read more here. Still have mining questions? The crew at /BitcoinMining would be happy to help you out.
If you want to contribute to the bitcoin network by hosting the blockchain and propagating transactions you can run a full node using this setup guide. Bitseed is an easy option for getting set up. You can view the global node distribution here.

Earning bitcoins

Just like any other form of money, you can also earn bitcoins by being paid to do a job.
Site Description
WorkingForBitcoins, Bitwage, XBTfreelancer, Cryptogrind, Bitlancerr, Coinality, Bitgigs, /Jobs4Bitcoins, Rein Project Freelancing
OpenBazaar, Purse.io, Bitify, /Bitmarket, 21 Market Marketplaces
Streamium.io, XOtika.tv NSFW, /GirlsGoneBitcoin NSFW Video Streaming
Bitasker, BitforTip Tasks
Supload.com, SatoshiBox, JoyStream, File Army File/Image Sharing
CoinAd, A-ads, Coinzilla.io Advertising
You can also earn bitcoins by participating as a market maker on JoinMarket by allowing users to perform CoinJoin transactions with your bitcoins for a small fee (requires you to already have some bitcoins)

Bitcoin Projects

The following is a short list of ongoing projects that might be worth taking a look at if you are interested in current development in the bitcoin space.
Project Description
Lightning Network, Amiko Pay, and Strawpay Payment channels for network scaling
Blockstream, Rootstock and Drivechain Sidechains
21, Inc. Open source library for the machine payable web
ShapeShift.io Trade between bitcoins and altcoins easily
Open Transactions, Counterparty, Omni, Open Assets, Symbiont and Chain Financial asset platforms
Hivemind and Augur Prediction markets
Mediachain Decentralized media library
Tierion and Factom Records & Titles on the blockchain
BitMarkets, DropZone, Beaver and Open Bazaar Decentralized markets
Samourai and Dark Wallet - abandoned Privacy-enhancing wallets
JoinMarket CoinJoin implementation (Increase privacy and/or Earn interest on bitcoin holdings)
Coinffeine and Bisq Decentralized bitcoin exchanges
Keybase and Bitrated Identity & Reputation management
Telehash Mesh networking
JoyStream BitTorrent client with paid seeding
MORPHiS Decentralized, encrypted internet
Storj and Sia Decentralized file storage
Streamium Pay in real time for on-demand services
Abra Global P2P money transmitter network
bitSIM PIN secure hardware token between SIM & Phone
Identifi Decentralized address book w/ ratings system
BitGo Multisig bitcoin API
Bitcore Open source Bitcoin javascript library
Insight Open source blockchain API
Leet Kill your friends and take their money ;)

Bitcoin Units

One Bitcoin is quite large (hundreds of £/$/€) so people often deal in smaller units. The most common subunits are listed below:
Unit Symbol Value Info
millibitcoin mBTC 1,000 per bitcoin SI unit for milli i.e. millilitre (mL) or millimetre (mm)
microbitcoin μBTC 1,000,000 per bitcoin SI unit for micro i.e microlitre (μL) or micrometre (μm)
bit bit 1,000,000 per bitcoin Colloquial "slang" term for microbitcoin
satoshi sat 100,000,000 per bitcoin Smallest unit in bitcoin, named after the inventor
For example, assuming an arbitrary exchange rate of $10000 for one Bitcoin, a $10 meal would equal:
For more information check out the Bitcoin units wiki.
Still have questions? Feel free to ask in the comments below or stick around for our weekly Mentor Monday thread. If you decide to post a question in /Bitcoin, please use the search bar to see if it has been answered before, and remember to follow the community rules outlined on the sidebar to receive a better response. The mods are busy helping manage our community so please do not message them unless you notice problems with the functionality of the subreddit. A complete list of bitcoin related subreddits can be found here
Note: This is a community created FAQ. If you notice anything missing from the FAQ or that requires clarification you can edit it here and it will be included in the next revision pending approval.
Welcome to the Bitcoin community and the new decentralized economy!
submitted by BinaryResult to Bitcoin [link] [comments]

new here. just got kicked out a few hours ago when dad discovered me reading about the JW leaks. heres my story

TLDR: fairly new to reddit so I'm still getting accustomed to how reddit works. JW elder dad disowned me, destroyed family laptop (which I paid for), and kicked me out of the house because he oversaw me reading the post about the leaks about sexual abuse in the JW religion, originally posted this someplace else where readers may not know jws so bear with me.
long story: I feel this needs to get out and more people need to know about the reality of what this religion is and how it affects women and how it affected me personally within the last 4 hours. Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult, plain and simple. my sister and I were raised in this religion and were baptized fairly young. being baptized is not like in other religions when its done shortly after birth. in our case, we had to sit down for weekly bible studies and we were encouraged (i'd say coerced) into making the decision to pledge our lives to the jw faith. this happened when I was 8 years old. my older sister (whom I have lost contact with for years since my parents disowned and kicked her out when she was 21) was also baptized at a young age. this was also around the time when she experienced abuse of her own by a 30 year old male prominent member of the congregation.
this is how messed up the religion is: the guy who abused her would use his position in the congregation to get close and be around younger people, girls in particular. as the baptized male of the morning preaching group, during which we went door-to-door, he'd make sure to be in the car with the younger kids during summer time. as leader of the group, he decides who pairs up with who to go down a street and knock on doors. my sister had the misfortune of being chosen last to get paired up with... guess who... the leader. he made sure that the other pairs went down other roads while he would take her along a different road of houses to knock on. I still pass by the road sometimes where he took her. he purposely picked the road where there were homes up for sale where there would be less chance of people being home to see whats going on in the neighborhood. I remember her telling me that he insisted on going down this road because "people are lying with those for sale signs to pretend no one is home. lets go check on them anyway to spread the good news". and he took her along. she was 12 at the time but due to her height, she could pass as being 18.
as he took her down the houses with 'for sale' signs, he decided they knock on a particular house where they had tall long trees acting as a fence around their property, obscuring the view from neighbors. no one was home when they rang the front door bell. so then this pervert suggested they go around the back and see if maybe theres a side door or a backdoor apartment. he asked her "do you think we should check?". what was she going to say? no? you have to keep in mind, that in the JW world, we are urged to preach no matter what to everyone and anyone. any opportunity you have to spread the 'good news' must be taken. if theres a chance that we're going to find some god-searching soul in the backyard, its our duty to go check. so when he asked her that, he knew she was going to say yes.
as they went to the back, there was no door, but there were lawn chairs. later we'd find out that the home was indeed for sale but that he deliberately picked that house knowing that no one was home so as to lure my sister there and suggest they sit down and take a break. in a complete stranger's backyard! and its there where he put his arm around her, pretending to reach towards a water bottle he purposefully placed on her other side, and then kissed her on her, first on her forehead, and then on her cheek.
he was 30, she was 12. and at first she felt flattered and enjoyed the attention. and this happened on more than one occasion during that summer, when he'd take out the group of mostly young kids, and purposefully go down that block and stop at that house to spend time together in that backyard. she told me that sometimes they'd just sit and talk...and other times they'd lay down and makeout. and as they did this more often, his hands began going where they had no business going on her body and that's when she started to feel uncomfortable. because they had gone down that road so often, it began to catch the attention of the others in the group and one day one their dad's asked the 30yr old if they found someone interested in studying or something since it came to his attention that he and my sister kept going down that road and always took their time regrouping with the others. the sicko made my sister lie and say that they had found some older woman who was interested in studying the bible but that she was there only for that summer and so wanted to study as much as she could before she had to leave. how convenient. the dad of one of the other kids instantly knew something was up and questioned my sister in private. he was not an elder or anything. but he did truly care. and when she fessed up about what had been going on, he and her spoke directly to the congregation elders.... and heres where it got more messed up.
the 30 yr old accused my sister of lying, that nothing ever happened.. that she was making it all up. that it was lies concocted by the other dad to make the perv look bad and lose his position and his 'privileges' in the congregation. since there was no hard evidence at the time, the elders let the matter rest since it was all the perv's word against my sister. months later, a few elders (congregation leaders) went down that same road, for no reason connected to the summer's events. they just happened to be covering that territory with the day's preaching group. I was 9 at the time, and was with one of the elder's wives going door to door. a lady comes towards our group and says she doesn't like us at all and wants us off her sidewalk and her property. the elder's wife asks her why. the lady says that she remembers seeing a young couple going to the backyard of the house they clearly didn't live in, and would behave like 'dirty love birds'. immediately, one of the elders tell his wife to take me inside the car while they talk with older lady.
by connecting the dots of what the old lady must've told them, it becomes evident that the story was true and that the perv had indeed been abusing my sister. did the elders do anything? did they reopen the case? did they apologize to my sister? NO! instead, they told me to make like I didn't see or hear anything and that the 'worldly' lady cant be trusted. of course I told my sister this when I got home, and she told our parents.......... but they had already received a call from the elders telling them that in the case my sister and I bring this up again, the matter has been investigated and that nothing else is to be done. my father,who was a newly appointed elder at the time, sided with them and told us to never bring it up and in particular threatened my sister with severe beatings if she ever spoke about the 'alleged' incident. in fact, privately, they believed that it did happen but that it was my sister who made the first move upon the 30 year old perv due to the 'revealing' clothes she was wearing during those summer days. 'revealing' in the sense that her arms and calves were showing. yeah... in my dads eyes, IF anything happened, it was her fault and she shouldn't say anything anyway because we mustn't 'bring reproach upon Jehovah's name or his organization".
fast forward some years, she gets kicked out for having a non-jw boyfriend. her and I lose touch over personal matters between her and I. and then today, I come across that reddit post about the leaks. sitting in the living room with my laptop open, my dad sneaks up behind me, purposefully not making a sound so that he can see what websites I'm on, and once he sees the negative post about jehovahs witnesses, he loses his shit and takes away my laptop, which I paid for with my summer job, and immediately accuses me of being an apostate and starts taking whatever clothes he can pick up in his two arms and throws them outside. my mom is crying her eyes out, not at what my dad is doing to me, but because I was on a website critical about jehovahs witnesses. you have to understand, that in this toxic religion, any form of disloyalty to the organization is by extension a direct act of disloyalty to god himself. so she approves of my dads reactions. what really really sucks is that that was my laptop, that I was using for school and work. I've been effectively kicked out and now homeless, or at least until my best friend lets me crash at her place and use her tablet until her parents say no more. I cant go back to my part time job because my manager is another elder in the same congregation and I'm sure by now my dad has already spoken to him, telling him and the other elders that he's kicked me out.
you have to understand that in the jw religion, if an elder's child acts up in anyway against the faith, that elder could lose his position UNLESS he takes immediate steps to rid his house of any unbeleivers and apostates, which I now am since I was caught reading that post.
the world needs to know what this religion is like. it is not some friendly religion of good natured god-fearing people. sure there are people who are sincere in their belieif in god and spirituality. but for the most part, and especially for women and young kids, this is a toxic religion where loyalty to the organization comes first and foremost. if anything happens in private that could become public and make jw's look bag, they will do whatever in their power to keep it a secret. every form of plausible deniability, every form of reasonable doubt in their favor, any line of defense they can take to hide abuse and scandal will be take... so long as jw's don't get bad press. the world needs to know.
edit: wow! thank you for the support. no I'm not a minor. I'm 20. I'm still learning how reddit works and editing and stuff. will answer your replies. currently looking for place to stay. friend said I can stay with her for the week.
Edit 2: what infuriates me is how backwards this religion is. They discourage good careers but won’t stop asking for contributions. They discourage having long term plans, so when I talked about investing with some friends, their reaction is “what for?”. The end is around the corner. Lately I got very into cryptocurrencies and because my dad likes to go thru my debit card transactions, i’ve had to hide cash and use it to buy bitcoin at a local bitcoin atm. I used that to buy Ethereum. The fractional bitcoin I had is at an exchange I can withdraw from... but my Ethereum wallet was in my latptop, with the address and keys. With a destroyed laptop, there goes that. I got some of the friends in on cryptos and they made out nicely recently since summer. But again... once the elders caught wind of this, they spoke to my dad who yelled at me for making the family look materialistic... even though he has some bitcoin as well. The hypocrisy is everywhere and I can’t stand it anymore and I’m glad I’m out.
Edit 3: thank you all for being supportive. Forgot to be clear. Yes he took my laptop and smashed it. And inside was my Ethereum wallet address and the keys necessary to get funds out. I’m considering staying out parents house for the garbage and maybe salvage the hard drive.
Edit 4: thank you all so much for the many suggestions. Suing them isn’t going to get back my Ethereum wallet. If the hard drive is smashed, then it’s gone. If it’s not smashed, I still have to try to retrieve it somehow from their property. My dad is pretty knowledgeable with computers so I wouldn’t be surprised if he already went at it with a hammer. I can’t take my parents to court and force them to support me. That just means I have to keep them involved in my life and although that seems one way in theory, in practice it means having to deal with them and the resentment and the guilt tripping and the disappointmentment and animosity. Like what am I supposed to do? Live in their house while they make my life miserable with all sorts of passive aggressivity and resentment? Or do I collect at check from them? That’s just one messed up scenario. I’d rather have this clean break and start from scratch. From nothing. I have a week to come up with something. I was supposed to start school in a few weeks but that’s not gonna happen since I depended on them for rides and my job for tuition. I’m sure my jw boss/manager is going to use some minor infraction to have basis to fire me. So that’s done. Idk what my options are.
I want to emphasize that the point of my post was to share with everyone the realities of this toxic religion. With these leaks and the media spotlight, we are in a unique position and time to keep the spotlight on these injustices caused by some old men grasping to a mutated understanding of christ’s Teachings. This is not loving. This is not the truth. And any policy that lets pedophiles roam free can’t have the blessing of god.
I’ll never forget how years ago, there was an odd man who’d attend the mid week meetings. And when children would give their talks and parts, he’d give them a lollipop after the meeting. He wasn’t a baptized. He wasn’t really studying with anyone. He was just there to enjoy watching kids give their parts. It was creepy as hell! Did that behavior raise any red flags? Did the elders ask him to stop approaching kids he didn’t know? No way! In fact, elders and servants practically tripped over themselves offering him bible studies, hoping one of them would The one to convert and baptize him. He eventually disappeared but come on!!!! This is what’s allowed to happen in this organization. And it has to stop. And it will stop when the spotlight gets brighter and longer. And if my story can help keep that light longer, it’s worth it.
Edit 5: UPDATE - WOW! Thank you for reddit gold! I just read up on what that is lol. Thank you thank you!
Pressing charges: this harder than it seems. I have no evidence he physically took my laptop and smashed it. It’ll be my word against his. He’d rather see me lose than have any edge in recovering anything. Since I wrote the event in such a hasty manner, I left out some details about the actual smashing.
He saw I was reading the article. He then gets furious and asks why I’m reading apostate material. This is a guy whose only non-jw webpage visit is the Microsoft Edge browser homepage before he types in jw.org. Anything that is not org related he considers apostate material. At first I try to play it off like it just appeared in the news section but then he clicks on the history and sees I read a few articles about the leak. Given my personal history with my sister about abuse, he connects the dots that i must still harbor bad feelings towards the organization. And in the heated argument between us, I yell out how everyone is about to know the extent of their corruption and injustice and hypocrisy of every layer of the organization and that this is the true “end” of their world. That sealed my fate as an apostate when both my mom and dad hear me say that the organization is finished. Jws know that the moment there’s a hint of apostasy in the air, it must be dealt with immediately. I just texted some friends from the hall and haven’t gotten a reply back. Clearly I’m already being shunned. My one friend I’m with now is a non-jw who I have known for years and is kind enough to let me crash for a week.
The laptop is gone. I went by the house and noticed the garbage put out by the sidewalk. There were only two bags with what I could feel was soft garbage. Nothing metallic or laptop-like. Yes... I actually felt up the garbage. I could not have imagined that this is my life now, going thru garbage. Chances are he has the hard drive and already went to work on it.
I did get a text from my mom saying “you’ve been hiding money from us? Who are you?”
They must have gone thhru my room and found some bitcoin atm receipts which showed I bought bitcoin in cash from money I had withdrawn from the atm that I would say was for Kingdom Hall contributions. Yea... I had to fake giving the hall money so I could instead save up and buy bitcoin instead which I then converted into Ethereum... which is now gone and lost. Such is life.
I’m looking at job opportunities. I texted my jw/boss asking what time I should come in tomorrow, and haven’t received a response. So... I can assume the news has spread.
submitted by cryptosnarkx to exjw [link] [comments]

Chat_Report.25>2 - XL

[22:12] it's not like I'm going to be offended that someone feels that way [22:12] but it's not healthy to be a dick about it, and that's kind of the only way that I can think to be able to deal with it [22:12] I guess, that's not a bad way to think about it [22:12] if you're having trouble dealing with it [22:12] I guess I just have to accept that I am not an expert on that [22:12] but I do have the most basic understanding of the concept [22:12] and I have always known what a "dissociative" is [22:12] and that they are in fact a distinct psychological state [22:13] I didn't have to google to find out [22:13] and in fact I have been working on a book on dissociative phenomena for a number of years [22:13] you mean you were trying to find out what they were? [22:13] i just finished [22:14] i got the manuscript finished and submitted a copy [22:14] well, the "book" is still on your todo list [22:14] i'm very anxious to publish [22:15] what about the research? are you doing any research on it? [22:15] and yes [22:16] some, but the bulk of my effort is in trying to make sense of it [22:16] what are you doing to help us understand it? [22:16] and i have a blogpost of my own that goes into the background of the phenomenon [22:16] it would be great if you could tell us a little about it [22:16] it sounds as if the phenomenon has something to do with people who have had a life-altering experience [22:17] and that the thing they have experienced is so powerful that it is capable of completely altering a person's personality [22:17] (well, that and the fact that a person who had such an experience could have access to the internet) [22:17] i'm sorry, but why not just tell us about it in full detail, instead of asking me a bunch of question and letting me decide what to ask [22:18] it would be very convenient to you [22:18] if you hadnt decided not to talk about it until after i had. [22:18] if you want to know more, it's quite common for people with this kind of problem to share their stories. [22:18] (i'm not sure if its normal, but i can assure you its not something i wouldn't ever do to any of you) [22:19] so i don't know what you're implying by saying you're uncomfortable with talking about it? [22:19] i'm just saying that i'm not going to force you to talk about it just because you told me it was hard to talk about [22:19] ok. [22:20] so this is it: you must come here with me now [22:20] ok [22:20] and I'll go to the other rooms and meet everyone. [22:20] I want to make this a place for everyone [22:21] ok [22:21] i'll talk to you when i get there [22:21] OK, I need a little more detail [22:22] What's the plan for getting it into the house? [22:22] well i'll let you know when i get there [22:22] Ok, thanks [22:22] i'll be back around 12:30 and ill be there [22:23] I've sent you a PM for the key and I'll be waiting for you to talk to her [22:23] lol [22:23] *key [22:23] ouch [22:24] But that's just me [22:24] You can't just go and do it like that, y'know? [22:24] lol [22:25] but if it's just a matter of asking me nicely, i don't mind [22:25] just send it to me and i'll do it [22:25] if that's what you want [22:25] I've never asked you to do anything but that, and I know you haven't, but, that's my opinion [22:26] I mean, if it helps you out a little bit, maybe I could just... [22:26] Vorpas, that's okay. I mean, I think you're pretty amazing, I do, I do. I just don't know what you want to do with your life. I think I'd like to try and get the people that are in the game to understand the power and the importance of the community. I mean, when you're playing against, when you see a really bad player, you can tell that that player is having fun, that they are having fun playing the game, because they are making a lot of money, and then you can just understand that it would be fun to play, and there would be a lot of money to be made by just playing the game. And I think the players that are playing it, maybe they don't know what's happening, and maybe they have the wrong idea about it. But it's okay, I'm not going to judge them, it's their own opinion and they're free to believe whatever they want to believe. [22:27] But, I'm just gonna leave that part up to you. [22:27] Cool. [22:27] So I'm just gonna be, like, really happy for you, 'cause I know you've been putting a lot of work into this. [22:28] You are doing it so well! [22:28] And I really appreciate that, like, for the last few months, it's been a struggle to stay motivated enough to do this. [22:28] I am a bit concerned about how long this will take. [22:28] I am just going to say this, if I'm going to continue doing this, I want you guys to stay around. [22:29] Well, I would love to keep helping, but I'm not sure what my plans are at the moment. [22:29] If you were to make a donation, that would be fantastic [22:29] You know, the donations are very helpful. I just thought that it might be good to keep track of who donated what. [22:29] Vorpas_Jabwak, I can try to get someone to check if this was indeed you that made the donation? [22:29] Oh, yeah. [22:29] Thanks! [22:29] You've probably never received one before, but if you were, that would be awesome. [22:30] Just wanted to let you know the new version of Mumble is being released and working on the beta channel. [22:31] If you do have the software I'd love to hear some feedback. I have a lot of questions for it. [22:32] I have a lot of questions for it too, but it's a bit complicated so I might not get a chance to do that anytime soon. I'll make sure to get on that when it is ready. [22:33] I'm glad you like it, I know I really do. I love having an easier to use, but powerful, voice chat. [22:34] I'd really like to make some more changes to the system, and try it out as a whole. But right now it's pretty darned good. [22:35] Thanks Jak. :) [22:35] I'll try my best to keep them updated. [22:35] Ok, I'll let you know when I get to them, Jak [22:35] Sorry if I didn't keep up with you guys. [22:36] Haha, sorry. [22:36] I'll see you around, Jak [22:36] *takes off* [22:36] Sup everyone? [22:36] I'm out [22:36] *in [22:37] sup [22:37] Hey! [22:37] So are you guys all there yet? [22:37] :P [22:38] * Turoth sets mode: +b KhaosReigns [22:38] Oh! I thought you all quit on me [22:38] * Turoth sets mode: +b KhaosReigns+ [22:38] So uh, what's my problem? [22:38] I was hoping you'd tell me to stop [22:38] I was so upset [22:38] I'm sorry [22:38] I should have been better [22:39] I didn't mean to startle you [22:39] You've just always made me feel like I could take care of myself [22:39] I guess I didn't realize that it takes a lot of people to keep the lights on [22:40] I'm sorry, I've never been this shy around people [22:40] It's been such a long time [22:41] This whole situation is just a shock [22:41] I'm starting to feel really nervous [22:41] I have to go home now [22:42] Ok [22:42] I'll see you later [22:42] Ohh, bye [22:42] Take care [22:42] Yeah, it's a long way home [22:42] Have a nice night [22:42] Thanks for everything. I had fun. [22:42] night [22:42] I hope you have a good night. [22:42] Have a nice night. [22:42] Thanks. [22:42] Have a good night. [22:42] Good night [22:42] How is everyone? [22:42] I'm fine. [22:42] Tired, but fine. [22:42] Yeah. [22:43] i dont know what happened [22:43] Don't know yet, so I'm trying to get the details. [22:43] I went out to get food [22:43] got a pizza, was eating it when I was interrupted by my girlfriend [22:43] and she was saying she wanted to see me [22:43] i don't even know where i am right now [22:44] so she called me at work this morning and said 'well, i'm sorry i couldn't make it for you today', and i had to tell her 'okay' [22:45] i cant find her or the phone number or anything [22:45] i was just in the car, and she was in the kitchen [22:45] it must of been a while [22:45] i think she was off last night [22:46] that's funny that you would call me like that [22:46] then you should know that she has been off for a while [22:46] she said she was sick, and i think she said she was going to stay home and rest and it wasn't till today that i found out the truth [22:46] yeah it's a real bummer that it was a false alarm [22:46] like i said she could have possibly been sick but wasnt being honest about it [22:46] it is a big bummer that we wasted so much time on it, but it doesn't change that we found her body [22:46] yeah we know how the night went, we just dont know if she was really asleep when the phone rang [22:46] i just wish she would have just told us the truth instead of getting her feelings hurt [22:46] the real question is: why is it a phone? [22:46] that's all i got [22:46] so that's it [22:46] yeah and she's got to go find out if she's pregnant [22:46] and i guess there's no point in trying to hide the pregnancy [22:46] she said it was just a few days ago [22:46] wait what [22:46] maybe her parents are going to find it [22:46] ok [22:46] maybe if her parents find out she's pregnant [22:46] they'll just throw you out [22:46] they will [22:47] why do you think she was crying? [22:47] well, I mean, I know it's weird but [22:47] no, you're right [22:47] I mean, it was pretty strange [22:47] she just seemed, well [22:47] I don't think she could have known the guy or not [22:47] there's been plenty of reports of people getting "paedo" on the site [22:47] so it could have just been that her brain just caught on [22:47] like that one guy who was arrested last year for having a lot of chatroom porn [22:47] which is like a whole different thing [22:48] and it just happened to be in that section that she kept checking [22:48] yeah [22:48] like it's not like she has this huge fucking file of porn on her computer [22:48] so if it happens to be in one place, it's not like she's a big fucking voyeur [22:49] but still, she was watching the entire thing [22:49] yes, and that is probably why the guy stopped her [22:49] I can see your point of view [22:50] and it was also in that section that she just kept checking [22:50] yes, and I can say that she just seemed so interested in the guy that she wouldn't mind if he was watching [22:50] and that's not exactly the case with me either [22:50] but, if she's only interested in other men, then she's obviously gay [22:51] which is just something to remember [22:51] and she's so smart, but I can't see her getting on with me [22:51] she has a crush on me, but I don't even know where to start [22:52] I was at a party in NY, and someone I knew was talking to her, and they had been flirting. I didn't get a chance to respond, but I am a nice guy. She said she didn't want to talk about it any more. I am a nice guy, and I know that flirting is bad, but I also know that I like her and I think that there's a chance that it could go somewhere. I want to have a relationship with her, I don't really know where to start [22:52] you'd have to ask her yourself [22:52] but it seems like you don't have to [22:52] but if that's your only point she can't really say something else... [22:52] i think if you were to say you didn't want to have sex with her, you would lose her... [22:52] i'm not even really interested in that right now [22:53] it just seems like she wants to have sex with you [22:53] and is hoping that you'll say yes [22:53] i guess so... [22:53] but she doesn't seem to be trying to win your votes [22:53] maybe she's just trying to piss you off [22:54] and you don't have the time to argue with her [22:54] the internet is a bitch. [22:54] but i know she's just trying to be funny [22:54] and to make a point [22:54] so why can't i? [22:54] yeah [22:54] what do you mean? [22:54] jalockk: i've never seen a single one of these people [22:54] but i see them every day [22:54] and they say the same shit [22:54] we don't like the idea of them being taken out because they are not the ones we really are against [22:54] well i don't think we need to be very big to do that [22:54] but they are a part of it [22:55] the people that dont like us [22:55] the people that are behind all this [22:55] or just the people [22:55] not the people [22:55] it's the people that don't have an opinion [22:56] we should never let our ignorance define us [22:56] well we're doing it now [22:56] and it's not even funny [22:56] it's just sad [22:56] no it's a serious problem [22:56] it's not funny [22:56] and the truth is sadder [22:56] i don't understand why he hates himself so much [22:56] is it because of the death [22:56] or the lies he told [22:56] that's what im trying to figure out too [22:57] not that there is an obvious answer to why he does what he does [22:57] i think he is a pretty shitty person [22:57] the lies hurt more [22:57] i really really wish i could understand [22:58] that's why i'm here to explain the way out [22:58] if i explain it to you in words [22:58] well i don't know you [22:58] i have to explain it to you in a way that makes sense to you [22:58] in english [22:58] and that's how [22:58] this whole thing starts with a picture of a woman [22:58] holding up a phone with the words "HELLO" on the screen [22:58] it's a picture of me [22:58] It's a pic of me in a hat [22:58] and i'm in the hat [22:58] which isnt me [22:58] i'm the one with the hat [22:59] i wear a hat to hide my face [22:59] and when i say this i don't really say "i'm the hat" [22:59] i say "i'm the hat" [22:59] oh okay [22:59] ok let me get this straight [22:59] if we're talking about the "why" [22:59] what the actual, fucking, fuck [22:59] why did she do it [22:59] the "when" part I'm not clear about [22:59] i'd assume that's the part we're discussing [22:59] ok i'm getting out of this [22:59] but yeah the "what" [22:59] yeah [22:59] and it seems like the "how" [22:59] isnt really a big deal [22:59] i think it is [22:59] the fact that we all agree on what it is [22:59] and are people who say its a big deal really saying it on the op? or is it on the op, and people who say its a big deal are just assholes? [22:59] we're pretty fucking certain it's not a big deal [22:59] if you're not convinced [22:59] please say so in the thread [22:59] i'd love to hear your arguments [22:59] the op is just a big deal, it is a huge deal, we've done the math, and there is no downside [22:59] we've actually spent the last 2 days talking about it [22:59] it doesn't really have any consequences on us, as we won't do anything stupid [22:59] we'd be better off not having it in the first place [22:59] it doesn't really matter [22:59] I know I'm a bit biased but... this whole thing feels like it's been set up to be solved by trolls [22:59] not to mention that we can already see a lot of the stuff they are talking about, they just don't want to talk about it [22:59] it's not like they would go back to it and say "we got this, so why don't you shut up!" [22:59] It's frustrating to see them try and keep this open... but it's a shame to see what happens when they fail. [22:59] I love how it seems like the more they try to keep it secret, the more they are forced to keep it open [22:59] :O [23:00] well we don't know yet what they have planned for the next phase but there's a lot of work to be done [23:00] no one knows what we'll be doing now, so if we do everything right, we could actually end up with some more power [23:00] i'm not saying we'll get that, we'll have to wait and see [23:00] maybe i'm just a bit optimistic [23:00] or maybe i'm just stupid? [23:01] i dunno i don't care anymore [23:01] just wait it out [23:01] no time to waste [23:01] let them make it as easy as possible [23:01] and keep an eye on what they say next [23:01] well that could mean some kind of delay [23:01] like they are going to push it out [23:01] well, that's their prerogative [23:01] what they said a month ago is what they're saying now? [23:01] Ok, I'm gonna leave this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woot\_com [23:01] but I can't find the link right now. :( [23:01] it's been posted to the website of the US government [23:01] so you know it's legit [23:02] oh. Ok. [23:02] so it's legit [23:02] ok. [23:02] So, we're not really at the point of doing the whole, "we have a solution" thing, so much as a "we have a general idea" thing. [23:03] i think that's what we're going for [23:03] the problem, in my experience, is that it's hard for people to really figure out what you're talking about. I would assume that with a lot of the work that's going on there are some people who are really good at solving it. I'm not. [23:04] i mean, it is sort of in the realm of "people" [23:04] that we've been able to make progress on this, so i am assuming you have done a lot of that work? [23:04] i would have to ask someone else how they are doing it [23:05] in terms of the algorithms they use [23:05] or other tools [23:06] http://bitinfocharts.com/blocksize-and-bitcoin-future-chart/ [23:06] but i don't know how you guys did it in a way that is also practical [23:06] no problem. it's been done. [23:06] just don't expect anyone to do it for you [23:07] i'll have to ask you that one [23:07] if you have a better idea please post it here and we'll discuss it [23:07] but if we don't have a better idea then we don't know what you're talking about [23:08] it's not our fault they are doing it [23:08] they do it to us [23:08] we don't have any other solution [23:08] but they have access to your wallet [23:09] you are paying for access to it [23:09] so they are getting access [23:09] you are paying to keep their access to your wallet [23:10] I am paying to keep your access to your wallet [23:10] they are making you do it [23:10] i am paying them to keep access to my wallet [23:10] that is what i have been told to do [23:10] what i was told to do [23:10] i am also paying them for this access [23:10] I am not paying to keep access to my wallet for them [23:11] I am paying them for this access [23:11] to mine in their account for them [23:12] well, that was fun [23:12] oh, that's too bad [23:12] it's all for you [23:12] you are mining it for them [23:12] so much for that [23:12] but then you are the victim of a scam, not me [23:13] oh, ok [23:13] it's a good thing you are aware now, because that is a great way to get scammed [23:13] so what's up? [23:14] ok [23:14] we've been looking for you for a while now and we can't find you. [23:14] ok. so what's up? [23:15] the last time you were on IRC we started doing our own investigation and you didn't know where you were or how long you'd been gone [23:15] so we thought that since you weren't there anymore that it had to be a scam [23:15] which it is [23:15] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0bzvq8Fx7Y [23:15] yeah. but it doesnt tell you that [23:15] you gotta ask [23:15] you got that right [23:16] alright. let me see if I can find something similar [23:16] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUZpwWg1g\_s [23:16] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFwX4jJYqhI [23:16] i have a different one [23:16] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h\_h2rK4V7ZM [23:16] it is shorter [23:16] it has less information [23:17] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYpq6H2jkZg [23:17] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYpq6H2jkZg [23:17] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYpq6H2jkZg [23:17] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYpq6H2jkZg [23:17] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYpq6H2jkZg [23:17] http ://www.youtube.com [23:17] http://www.youtube.com [23:17] http://www.youtube.com [23:17] ok I have been listening [23:18] let me hear your response to the question "why are you talking on the radio?" [23:18] "The answer to that is because I was just trying to communicate with the community" [23:18] why do you think it's a good idea to try to communicate with the community? [23:18] you don't need to ask, we're going to have a drink [23:18] let me get you something to drink [23:18] i will be back later [23:18] in like 2 mins [23:18] can you hear me? [23:18] yes, I can hear you [23:18] are you a bot? [23:18] no, i am human [23:19] oh [23:19] good to know [23:19] you're just very very drunk, i guess [23:19] just go to sleep [23:20] you just have to go to sleep [23:20] and it'll be over by the morning [23:20] i'll wait [23:21] but it was only a few hours ago [23:21] and i said it wouldn't be [23:21] so i'm guessing you can't help it [23:21] so is it over? [23:21] not sure if you can help it or not, but if you have any questions or suggestions, do send them to me [23:22] but yeah, there is no immediate threat at all [23:22] but i dont know what to do at the moment, maybe i should move everything to another server [23:22] but i have the code and the rpc server [23:22] you can do that? [23:22] yeah, just let me know what you want [23:22] okay, how do i run rpc from my localhost? [23:22] just open up a terminal and run "rpcuser -i 127.0.0.1" [23:22] okay [23:22] let's go back to maint [23:22] I'm going to add another option to run the wallet (wallet.conf) as a non root user [23:22] I'm going to add rpcuser as an option, and rpcpassword as a second option [23:22] and then run as root [23:23] okay, so what do i want the output of this command to be [23:23] the output should be something like "1" [23:23] what should i put in the command? [23:23] for now, i'll just type it out [23:23] rpcuser=myuser rpcpassword=mypassword [23:23] run_in_remote.sh --port=21 --listen=127.0.0.1:2222 [23:23] you should be able to type that in [23:23] and it should go through ok. you should see something like this: [23:23] [00:11] [23:21] [00:20] [23:23] what do i do to make the next post more visible? [23:23] can someone send a screenshot of the reddit post to me? [23:23] @emmaw [23:23] i can give you my address in case you want to send something there [23:23] you're welcome [23:23] well im going to have to ask the mod team that question now [23:23] thanks for the offer, we'll think about it [23:23] :) [23:23] i'll give you the link soon, also [23:23] but please don't PM me about that :) [23:24] sure [23:24] i'll leave it with you [23:24] but i'll check it again [23:24] later [23:25] so is this the one with the red pill? [23:25] or redpilled? [23:25] redpilled [23:25] redpilled [23:25] ok [23:25] thanks [23:25] I got the link [23:25] yeah [23:25] this is a very big deal [23:25] I'm in a hurry, so I can't see the link, but what you're doing is a lot more powerful than most of what I've ever heard before [23:26] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjf7hKQ6uQg [23:26] that's a pretty long video [23:26] yeah [23:26] there's lots of cool stuff in there, too [23:26] it has a nice flow to it, too [23:26] so, you have to remember: don't focus on the structure, focus on the content [23:27] i see [23:27] not sure if thats just me though [23:27] its a good thing to have [23:27] not sure why the devs don't do it, but there are some good reasons [23:27] yeah i got your point [23:27] im happy to make it easy for you [23:27] and for other devs to do it as well [23:27] (at least a few of the devs are here to see this) [23:27] we could even get a group of devs to go talk to the press and try to have the topic in a few of the big gaming sites [23:28] this could be a great way to get the game out and to everyone else [23:28] and then we can move onto the next thing [23:28] if this is successful I think we can even get some of the smaller ones to try it [23:28] also if any of the other big ones do it this will get them in on the process
submitted by ShadowWolf525 to WeirdGeneratedStories [link] [comments]

Slack log for Ark token's value proposition discussion 16-07-18

Please find below a log of the discussion we had in slack regarding the ark token's value proposition. Some of the community members who happen to be long term holders of ark feel that the ark token's value proposition isn't clearly communicated by the team so they asked about it. I'm posting the entire discussion it here to make a permanent record since slack wipes messages after a while.
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arigard [7:21 PM]
Hey team, so I'm curious. Is there any update on a new white paper at all that was being mentioned? I've been holding Ark since it hit Bittrex and I personally don't really have a clear idea about how the token is going to work in the overall picture, or what really the direction is for the project once v2 is out. It feels like things have gone a bit flat recently, are there any updates on direction and what the plan is once V2 is live? Is there any idea about when it might go live? Or how the Ark token will fit into the economy (will it be a gas?). I see a lot of other projects i'm invested in coming up with very clear roadmaps/dates and direction about what they want to be and I still personally feel Ark's message is a little confused and hard to read especially for people who are not coders/developers.
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:22 PM]
the roadmap is on the site, arkdirectory.com/kits has nice presentations and other goodies
roks0n (deadlock) [7:23 PM]
@Matthew_DC mentioned a couple of days ago that he’s preparing several blog posts which should explain most of these @arigard
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:23 PM]
the Blog also goes into lots of v2 details
Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:24 PM]
Hi everyone.
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:24 PM]
Ark is Ark, not like Eth with gas, hence no gas.
Hey @Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) welcome back
Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:24 PM]
Hey rob, hi Rok :slightly_smiling_face:
roks0n (deadlock) [7:25 PM]
Rob, I think he means how everything will be connected with ArkVM etc.
similar conversation as the one few days ago (edited)
Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:25 PM]
It's been a while, but I was head on in the project, sorry for not showing more often.
arigard [7:25 PM]
Yeah my main question is really I still don't know what will give the actual Ark token value .
goldenpepe [7:25 PM]
we dont know how the arkvm will work
All we can do is wait
Doubled1c3 (ArkStickers.com) [7:26 PM]
uploaded and commented on this image: bucket.jpg
@Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe)
goldenpepe [7:26 PM]
We can make assumptions but that's all they'll be
roks0n (deadlock) [7:26 PM]
@arigard this was the discussion: https://arkecosystem.slack.com/archives/C2ABRLZB8/p1531422791000216
roks0n (deadlock)
definitely, I’m not blaming anyone :slightly_smiling_face: Was just curious if there were any developments in terms of the updated whitepaper because I was reading one of the threads on reddit from 6 months ago where it was mentioned you’re looking to hire someone write it up.
Posted in #generalJul 12th
arigard [7:26 PM]
And I kind of feel this is such a big elephant in the room for people in the long run.
roks0n (deadlock) [7:26 PM]
click on the link and read from that post on (edited)
arigard [7:26 PM]
ok
Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:27 PM]
I saw that there has been some drawbacks with the V2 ?
(Not sure if it's exact, I only came a few times and seemed to understand it was so)
goldenpepe [7:28 PM]
There are just some incompatibilities between v1 and v2 in devnet
which is why devnet is currently down
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:28 PM]
ArkVM may be unnecessary as more modern approaches to handling contracts are available, one of the main issue is having them be distributed just like the tokens.
goldenpepe [7:28 PM]
There's a community run v2-only devnet though #devnet_unofficial
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:28 PM]
it's more like drawback with v1
arigard [7:30 PM]
I mean I've seen a lot of stuff in that discussion discussed over the past year and there still seems to be no concrete answers coming out and that is a bit of worry to me personally. It makes it look like the team doesn't even know. I think most that know of Ark understand it wants to create an easy way to deploy blockchains and work as a platform and have some inoperability options. But the fundamentals of how that work right now seems to be up in the air. In other projects I know what gives those tokens value, but in Ark I don't, so it's hard for me as an investor to really sell to someone else the benefits of the token when there is a big question mark still on it.
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:33 PM]
do you know that Ark Deployer has been available for quite some time?
arigard [7:34 PM]
Yes, that doesn't really answer any questions though.
mak [7:34 PM]
Ark deployer helps the main chain's business case somehow?
arigard [7:35 PM]
What gives Ark token actual value? Like what is the reason people need to buy and hold the Ark token? That is my question.
Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:36 PM]
@mak what you're saying is kinda like answering you can use a hammer when asked what a nail do.
arigard [7:36 PM]
You don't need to buy the Ark token to deploy a chain. You can just do it.
Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:36 PM]
I mean, the Ark Deployer doesn't answer what's the Ark.
mak [7:36 PM]
@Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) my point was directed towards rob's comment. I think you misunderstood it.
Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:37 PM]
@mak My bad then. I apologize.
Blockhunter [7:38 PM]
:boogieark9:
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:38 PM]
" I think most that know of Ark understand it wants to create an easy way to deploy blockchains and work as a platform and have some inoperability options. But the fundamentals of how that work right now seems to be up in the air."
This is why I wrote that.. there is no mystery of how that works. You are mistaken or uninformed.
arkenstone [7:38 PM]
That's the problem here because team is programming orientated but there hasn't been alot done on business aspect of the token and marketing investor point big view
mak [7:38 PM]
That only explains the value of the ark codebase not the blockchain though
arigard [7:38 PM]
I think you seem to be trying to turn the argument in a seperate direction.
It's a simple question.
What gives the Ark token value.
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:39 PM]
The market does. It's on 19 different exchanges.
arigard [7:39 PM]
Seems like you are being unhelpfully obtuse. I'll rephrase.
roks0n (deadlock) [7:39 PM]
so one thing that is clear to me is interoperability using ACES, where ARK is used as a “middleman” between two different chains, so if there’s high volume between those chains, it means the volume of ark increases as well .. what I’d like to know is how things will work with arkvm and how it will all work with sidechains (on eth, all the side chains will basically link back to the main chain which will be the one responsible for security afaik?)
arigard [7:39 PM]
What gives the Ark token value in the Ark ecosystem.
Blockhunter [7:40 PM]
Vote for Pedro he will make all your dreams come true
arigard [7:40 PM]
Eth is a gas, Waves is a gas. Ark is... what?
mak [7:40 PM]
ACES can work with any chains though. Doesn't have to be ark main chain. So I guess tomorrow persona can become the settlement layer for the Ark ecosystem and there's no incentive to stop it from happening.
arigard [7:40 PM]
^
roks0n (deadlock) [7:41 PM]
Mak, correct but if there are already lots of chains connected between ARK, it will be more appealing to link it through ARK directly
Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:41 PM]
As I understand it, ACES could be using any given blockchain as the middle man...
roks0n (deadlock) [7:41 PM]
it doesn’t mean that it can’t be copied tho
arigard [7:41 PM]
But there are no chains connected through Ark atm
That have any real value anyway
roks0n (deadlock) [7:41 PM]
eth and btc are
arigard [7:41 PM]
And they can be connected through any Ark clone.
bangomatic [7:41 PM]
I'd love to hear the Ark team chime in on this discussion
arigard [7:42 PM]
So anyone can come along and make another chain that can instantly overtake Ark at this present time if there isn't a failsafe reason for Ark to be the defacto currency.
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:42 PM]
https://arkecosystem.slack.com/archives/C2ABRLZB8/p1531762883000422 you can't keep saying things like this as if they are true.
arigard
That have any real value anyway
Posted in #generalToday at 7:41 PM
Blockhunter [7:42 PM]
Interoperability to the moon
mak [7:42 PM]
"it will be more appealing to link it through ARK directly"
Currently Ark is the only mature chain because it's been around longer but the moment persona or some other bridge chain gets listed on an exchange that dynamic is no longer there. So why would you prefer Ark over persona when that happens. That's the question as far as I understand it. (edited)
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:43 PM]
Persona has other goals, not duplicating Ark goals
Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:43 PM]
@bangomatic Hi!
arigard [7:43 PM]
What current sidechain of Ark has real value/position in the crypto market? Persona?
bangomatic [7:43 PM]
hey @Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe)!
mak [7:43 PM]
The blockchain as a transaction medium doesn't care about secondary goals.
It still has all the capabilities that Ark has.
Colby [7:43 PM]
What has value right now? :thinking_face:
rob [ Ark Labs ]
https://arkecosystem.slack.com/archives/C2ABRLZB8/p1531762883000422 you can't keep saying things like this as if they are true.
https://arkecosystem.slack.com/archives/C2ABRLZB8/p1531762883000422
Posted in #generalToday at 7:42 PM
arigard [7:43 PM]
Ark's ecosystem at present is not big enough to be a reason not to just take the tech and start your own.
To think otherwise is ludicrous.
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:44 PM]
that's a fine opinion
Jarunik [7:44 PM]
it is harder than you think :slightly_smiling_face:
arigard [7:44 PM]
We aren't Eth with multi $100mn + start ups and even if we were, what's currently to stop one of those just overtaking Ark and leaving it behind?
Jarunik [7:45 PM]
i hope some ark clones get really sucessful to be honest :slightly_smiling_face:
Colby [7:45 PM]
Same here!
Jarunik
i hope some ark clones get really sucessful to be honest :slightly_smiling_face:
Posted in #generalToday at 7:45 PM
Blockhunter [7:45 PM]
HODL ROCKET TECHNOLOGY
mak [7:45 PM]
Same here but then there's no reason to hold Ark over something else
arigard [7:45 PM]
i hope so too if there is some reason for Ark to always be there at the top considering it's the Ark platform.
Colby [7:45 PM]
But the thing is that I am wondering, if ark clones get successful, what benefits does it give back to ark
Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:45 PM]
@Jarunik to create an ecosystem?
mak [7:45 PM]
Right now we have to consider Ark's value not the other bridge chains
arigard [7:45 PM]
But if there isn't a reason for Ark to exist at the top, why are we all holding it?
Colby [7:45 PM]
Haha I think we are all thinking the same :slightly_smiling_face:
arigard [7:45 PM]
It's a terrible business plan
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:46 PM]
the point of BridgeChains is to allow new projects with no access the market a path to them through Ark, and hence gain value.
Other blockchains connections are through ACES, such as BTC, LTC, ETH, and more coming..
Persona has a way to trade Ark <> Prs
arigard [7:47 PM]
What is to stop them from getting their own exchanges in the future and just using Ark as a stepping stone to becoming their own platform operator?
mak [7:47 PM]
Sure rob, but there's now 10 different projects doing the same and they are faster in development than the ark team is
arigard [7:47 PM]
^
Blockhunter [7:47 PM]
Ark is the Yoda of blockchain and they need a better catchphrase. Better than ark gives no dates or point click blockchain
arigard [7:48 PM]
This attitude seems horribly naive if this is the value proposition.
mak [7:48 PM]
All of us believe in the vision that Ark brought us but I personally am not sure if Ark is the best option to execute that vision in time
arigard [7:48 PM]
The issue is, we don't know what the value proposition is.
mak [7:48 PM]
Other projects seem much faster
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:48 PM]
if you are into speculation, which it seems you are, then on paper all of your projects with no code are better and have more value than Ark
arigard [7:48 PM]
That's not true at all. lol.
Matthew_DC [7:49 PM]
At the most base level, ARK is a common currency token that is essentially automatically compatible with every bridge chain that is built based on ARK and is optimized for transaction volume and throughput to avoid bloat of other mechanisms introduced by the other chains. That is at the most basic level. By holding the ARK token itself, you will be able to enact the functions of multiple bridged chains both issued by our team and others. You will also be able to utilize the ARK chain as a pegged token to many bridged chains but that process will be transparent to users as it will be done behind the scenes without the user needing to do any functions. To think that someone will fork the code and generate a more effective ARK main chain means you have no confidence in the ARK team as the primary developer of the technology itself. In this case, if we are not and someone pushes a better version of the network, then I would argue maybe they SHOULD be chosen. That is the point of a free and open market. Not to mention the potential for registering and providing snapshot hashes to the main ARK blockchain to provide added security measures to a bridge chain with lower security due to lower market share etc, those are just baseline reasons.
As I mentioned the other day, at face value, consider this. What brings value to Litecoin or Bitcoin or Doge? In essence, ARK is a more effective currency and base network than all of these aforementioned networks with all of the added benefits being added for additional use cases.
roks0n (deadlock) [7:50 PM]
will ark based chains be bridged via arkvm?
goldenpepe [7:50 PM]
They cant be
You'd need the VM on both sides
Matthew_DC [7:50 PM]
I am currently on a conference call and have a lot going on so I can't respond too much.
goldenpepe [7:50 PM]
You can use AIP11's new tx types to do a sort of escrow between chains though i think
mak [7:50 PM]
@Matthew_DC Are you saying that the bridgechains deployed by ark-deployer don't have the same features?
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:50 PM]
ArkVM is not for bridging chains
goldenpepe [7:51 PM]
It can be
Coinme [7:51 PM]
And ICO's that will join Ark in the future will use it for buying their token.
goldenpepe [7:51 PM]
But both chains will need to be running the VM
Matthew_DC [7:51 PM]
The ARK main chain will have specific methods of allowing token transfer and utilization between chains to include quasi-centralized methods through aces, decentralized aces based intermediary networks, Time locked transfers, among custom built smart contract like logic built into the core technology itself that doesn't make the network susceptible to the bloat and mis-utilization an vulnerabilities of full VM use.
goldenpepe [7:51 PM]
(which the main ark chain wont be)
mak [7:51 PM]
"ICO's that will join Ark in the future will use it for buying their token"
Or any other bridgechain that's listed on exchanges
@Matthew_DC So will all of the bridgechains, no? I could start an ACES node today for persona and it will have no difference from what you describe.
Matthew_DC [7:52 PM]
@mak no, we promised ARK would be open source and everything we build for the core ARK blockchain will be open source.
arigard [7:53 PM]
You can be open source and still protect your value..
Matthew_DC [7:54 PM]
The point of ARK from day 1 has been to create a better base layer blockchain technology and protocol for everyone everywhere to be able to use to create anything they can dream up.
The ARK token is a core payment layer for the ecosystem including any applications we build ourselves, sponsor, partner with, or support.
mak [7:54 PM]
It seems like the team's vision for Ark is as a software product only and there's no business plan for the main chain. Which is fine but it's not explained as such. (edited)
Blockhunter [7:55 PM]
Great to see such active discussions
goldenpepe [7:55 PM]
I think what Matt is trying to portray is this:
A single universal Ark Ecosystem wallet holding ARK that has a nice UI with a list of dapps in the ecosystem
You select a dapp
You send a tx from the wallet using Ark
----------------Everything below this line is transparent to the user-----------------
The Ark transaction has instructions in the smartbridge field
The Ark gets converted to dappCoin via an intermediary like ACES (trustful) or a trustless escrow smart contract
The intermediary received Ark and uses the dappCoin on the dapp chain to do whatever it is the user wanted to do using the instructions in the smartbridge field
The dappchain responds to the request to the intermediary
Intermediary sends an Ark tx with the results of the dapp computation/action in the smartbridge field
---------------Everything above this line is transparent to the user-------------------
After 8+ seconds, user's wallet shows them the result of their interaction with the dapp bridgechain
That's where the value of Ark will come from
The Ark coin will be a universal "omni-coin"
Matthew_DC [7:56 PM]
:this: This
goldenpepe [7:56 PM]
That will instantly shapeshift into bridgechain coins to interact with the bridgechain dapp
mak [7:58 PM]
I understand what your point is and I agree it will work but only as long as none of the bridge chains are on an exchange
when for example persona gets listed on binance the scenario changes
and now either chain can become the backbone of the ark ecosystem
arigard [7:58 PM]
Yes. We see that. But hypothetically what is to stop a bridged Ark chain from becoming bigger than Ark and then going on to become that gateway? At this point it just seems to be hopium that the Ark network will always be the one people look to. But in one year, or two, or five, it might not be the case. What is to stop Ark being just sidelined if another team come along with develop on what Ark has built and propel it forward and take the mantle?
goldenpepe [7:58 PM]
What you say will be a problem only if the utility of the dapp coin is greater than the utility of the ark omnicoin
Would you rather hold a coin that can do one thing and is forever tied to a single chain
arigard [7:59 PM]
But in other crypto's an app becoming sucessfull is a benefit. In Ark's network it could be a negative.
goldenpepe [7:59 PM]
Or would you rather hold a coin that can interact with that single chain and 3232523432 others
arigard [7:59 PM]
But why can't another coin become an omnicoin?
If there are no limitations against it
goldenpepe [7:59 PM]
Why can't another coin become ethereum?
mak [7:59 PM]
"What you say will be a problem only if the utility of the dapp coin is greater than the utility of the ark omnicoin"
Or if it gives out better staking returns etc like persona because of higher inflation rate
goldenpepe [7:59 PM]
if there are no limitations against it
You can literally go on AWS right now and deploy an ethereum clone chain
arigard [7:59 PM]
It can, but an ETH token can't oust ETH
That's the difference. We are giving people an easy route here.
rob [ Ark Labs ] [7:59 PM]
do you often think your children should not surpass you? Or is that the hope?
Matthew_DC [8:00 PM]
Well it's about security, trust, potential vulnerabilities due to added functionality, the ability of the bridgechain team to create interactions and focus on use cases for their token outside of their core use, etc.
But that's the point of open and free markets
goldenpepe [8:00 PM]
There is a solution to your concern @arigard
Matthew_DC [8:00 PM]
What is to stop someone from being better than Bitcoin?
arigard [8:01 PM]
I think all these strawman arguments are fun, but they still aren't adressing the issuel
goldenpepe [8:01 PM]
Instead of having Ark Deployer literally cloning the ark codebase, have it be a turnkey solution to run a layer 2 chain
Matthew_DC [8:01 PM]
You could go fork Ethereum right now and have an exact copy of the capability of the main Eth chain.
goldenpepe [8:01 PM]
bridgechain dapps can be "colored coins"
that are forever tied to the main chain
arigard [8:01 PM]
Yeah but you wouldn't have those businesses on the chain.
goldenpepe [8:01 PM]
but that would introduce bloat
Matthew_DC [8:01 PM]
So you are saying the utility of Ethereum is adoption.
arigard [8:01 PM]
And those businesses won't have the potential to become the main ETH.
Matthew_DC [8:01 PM]
Which is the case for the value of any token.
goldenpepe [8:01 PM]
@arigard It sounds like you want ark to become Ethereum Plasma
arigard [8:02 PM]
I just want an answer.
Matthew_DC [8:02 PM]
How many companies are pulling their ERC20 tokens off of Ethereum because of the issues?
Colby [8:02 PM]
Yeah but correct me if im wrong
goldenpepe [8:02 PM]
There is no answer that will satisfy what you are asking
arigard [8:02 PM]
And i keep getting strawmanned.
Colby [8:02 PM]
Ethereum projects NEED eth for gas
Matthew_DC [8:02 PM]
We talk to people almost every day that are looking to leave Ethereum.
Colby [8:02 PM]
Ark is needed for?
arigard [8:02 PM]
^
Colby [8:02 PM]
This is all I am wondering, where does the ark coin fit into it
I love the idea
goldenpepe [8:02 PM]
@arigard You want ark-based coins to rely on Ark
The team wants the Ark chain to not be bloated
The solution to this is unironically ethereum plasma and sharding
Colby [8:02 PM]
but have been waiting for a while to know how the Ark coin will actually be used
goldenpepe [8:03 PM]
Shards in ethereum are basically "bridgechains"
arigard [8:03 PM]
Ok, and those teams might be big enough and clued up enough to eventually knock Ark from being the de facto omni coin. That's the worry.
If this is in fact the possibility.
Then it should be clear.
mak [8:03 PM]
"You could go fork Ethereum right now and have an exact copy of the capability of the main Eth chain."
@Matthew_DC Ethereum has value because all the dapps live on it which is not true for ark
arigard [8:03 PM]
Because as an investor it worries me, a lot.
I don't know where the value of Ark as an investment is 100% right now.
Jarunik [8:03 PM]
Ark is basically the inverse approach to Ethereum. Eth goes for big one-fits all first and tries to shard ... Ark is creating shards and then combines them
goldenpepe [8:03 PM]
There is no solution to what @arigard and @mak are saying right now
Literally no existing solution
Only proposals like sharding
arigard [8:04 PM]
And all this noise about defensiveness doesn't help. These are legit concerns.
Matthew_DC [8:04 PM]
When was it not clear that if a company comes along and builds a better more used product it could potentially take over market share?
That's how all free markets work.
You can't believe in open source and build and open source product without that risk.
arigard [8:04 PM]
But that isn't the same thing. Ark is literally building THE tools for people to then do that.
mak [8:04 PM]
@Matthew_DC Just to clarify I appreciate the work you guys are doing but I want to make an informed investment decision about holding the ark token
arigard [8:04 PM]
As a platform.
Jarunik [8:04 PM]
yes ... that is the idea how to grow
arigard [8:04 PM]
if you cloned Bitcoin back in the day you were a seperate currency.
Jarunik [8:04 PM]
provide good tools for others to create chains
arigard [8:04 PM]
This is a platform, its totally different.
And what we are discuswsing here is who runs that platform.
Matthew_DC [8:05 PM]
If someone launched an Ethereum chain right now and gained adoption there is a huge potential that all tokens decide to move their ERC20 tokens to the new chain and it becomes the new Ethereum and you have in essence lost all value because Ethereum is not capable of being used on the bridge chain as a currency.
ARK maintains it's value if for no other reason than the pegged value to any chain we personally create to include VM chain, token issuance chain, etc.
arigard [8:05 PM]
If it's built by Ark, does Ark always retain control? if not, why? What happens if Ark ends up building tools for a subsidary project that propels itself above them. Investors will just move to that coin.
Matthew_DC [8:05 PM]
Because it's an open decentralized system.
The problem is people don't actually believe in decentralization if it possibly harms their potential for monetary gain.
rob [ Ark Labs ] [8:06 PM]
we hope bridgechains get popular because that also means more for Ark in many ways.
arigard [8:06 PM]
You can be decentralized without being 100% altruistic. It's not mutually exclusive.
mak [8:06 PM]
@goldenpepe Since you guys claim that there's no solution for this how about I present one which @Matthew_DC can decide if it's useful or not. Make delegate voting for the ArkVM happen on the main chain. So anyone who wants to become a delegate for the VM needs to hold money on the main chain.
arigard [8:07 PM]
It just seems people are being dogmatic about this.
And if this isn't about investment. Why have an ICO?
Matthew_DC [8:07 PM]
Ethereum being the core chain for all ERC20 token based businesses centralizes the industry in a massive way. Not only is Ethereum itself centralized in the way it's mining structure was developed, but it also is centralized in that if the Ethereum network is compromised, thousands of companies assets and business are now compromised.
We don't believe that is the future.
mak [8:07 PM]
I'm not saying that this should be done for all sidechains. Just for the VM and it will be a special case.
Matthew_DC [8:07 PM]
We believe in a different business model.
That has been at the core of every description and explanation I have given from day 1.
arigard [8:07 PM]
Ok and that's fine, but my point is this should be made very clear if it's the case.
From the team officially.
goldenpepe [8:07 PM]
@mak now you're strawmanning me
Matthew_DC [8:07 PM]
Where is it not clear?
goldenpepe [8:08 PM]
I was addressing the fact that the idea that bridgechains shouldnt be independent and should be tied to Ark being in conflict with the Ark team's idea that the main chain should not be bloated with dapps
The only plausible solution to that right now
is Ethereum Plasma
Sharding
yokoama (thefoundry Delegate) [8:09 PM]
Sharting
mak [8:09 PM]
"We believe in a different business model."
I respect that. But it changes the ark's value proposition to just being a source of funding to the ark team and a means of speculation.
goldenpepe [8:09 PM]
Shards in ethereum are like bridgechains but the coins are all erc20s that rely on ethereum
Matthew_DC [8:09 PM]
People said ARK's DPoS mechanism would be a failure when we changed the voting structure because they said it wouldn't be secure enough. It has turned out to be massively secure compared to the centralized cartel run solutions of other DPoS chains. This is another fundamental issue where we believe we have a model that will work and will create value and thousands of use cases for the ARK token in a seamless way for the average user.
goldenpepe [8:09 PM]
and the shard blocks dont interfere or bloat up the "main" eth chain
mak [8:09 PM]
@goldenpepe I'm not suggesting deploying dapps on main chain. Just that the voting should take place there so there is always incentive to keep money on the main chain.
Matthew_DC [8:10 PM]
At no point did we say ARK was gas and have constantly made sure to outline the differences between ARK and Ethereum.
I believe the Eth model is flawed.
goldenpepe [8:11 PM]
The current ethereum model is flawed
If sharding works then it's going to solve a lot of its issues
(i dont hold any ethereum btw)
arigard [8:12 PM]
At no point have we actually had an updated white paper discussing this question in detail, clearly. It's not on the website and if it is it's buried somewhere in a blog post. The fact these discussions keep cropping up is proof of this.
nukacolaplease [8:12 PM]
I think we don't understand clearly what makes Ark important after the launch of the sidechains, Ark will be only an "exchange token"? The sidechain doesn't need Ark for operating
goldenpepe [8:12 PM]
+1 on needing a new whitepaper
Matthew_DC [8:12 PM]
replied to a thread:
This is a means of centralization of the network. Instead, by utilizing a form of pegged bridge chains, we can maintain a similar effect without creating centralization and reliance on 1 chain for others to properly function.
arkenstone [8:12 PM]
I think these things should be clearly written in a new WB and officially made public and promoted
goldenpepe [8:12 PM]
A new whitepaper would clear up so much FUD
pieface [8:13 PM]
Yeah I think a new WP is needed for sure
arigard [8:13 PM]
So don't start going "Oh everybody knows this, it's clear" Show me where on the front page of the website it tells you how the token mechanics will work in the ecosystem? It's not good it being on some powerpoint on a google drive, or hidden in comments in the slack.
mak [8:13 PM]
I though there wasn't going to be a new whitepaper.
arigard [8:13 PM]
It needs to be clear to investors how it works, exactly.
goldenpepe [8:13 PM]
I agree with arigard here
I only know what I know because I live on slack
Matthew_DC [8:13 PM]
The solutions are still in development and there are always opportunities to continue to adapt the model, that's why I have these conversations and ask for feedback regularly, but the core fundamental belief of how open and free decentralized markets should work most likely won't change.
arkenstone [8:13 PM]
Same here
goldenpepe [8:14 PM]
The vast majority of ark holders have no idea
they just bought bc of the cool red triangle
arigard [8:14 PM]
Stop playing cute, this is people's money you are asking for. So at least give them the benefit of being honest that there is no inherent business model reason why Ark will be necessary in the future.
And let them make their decisions.
roks0n (deadlock) [8:14 PM]
I agree, it took me months of following discussion on slack and digging around reddit to get information
arigard [8:14 PM]
With proper information.
mak [8:14 PM]
replied to a thread:
It's centralizing value onto one chain but doesn't bottleneck the ecosystem so I don't see anything being wrong with that.
Matthew_DC [8:15 PM]
replied to a thread:
I'm not arguing with you and I made a clear post here within the last 2 days that our website messaging is shit and needs completely redone.
If the ARK network is compromised or the consensus mechanism of the ARK main net is compromised then all subsequent networks reliant on that consensus would be compromised as well.
mad4thrash [8:15 PM]
In my opinion Ark's value come from (in the future) the fact that by holding one coin I can interact with every bridgechain plus any ACES services
Matthew_DC [8:16 PM]
So what I am saying is that we have to be cautious of these kinds of decisions and ensure that we aren't inadvertently creating attack vectors to take down partners, businesses, and other industries using the technology.
I'm sorry guys, I have to go, but I would love to continue this conversation on Reddit or here at a later time.
mak [8:16 PM]
"all subsequent networks reliant on that consensus would be compromised as well"
^ Correction: only the VM chain will be compromised since I'm not advocating that all bridgechains should vote on the main chain.
Matthew_DC [8:19 PM]
In an isolated case, if we can map it out and vet the concept, I'm more than happy to hear it out and have the conversation.
Solowatch [8:19 PM]
So I think we can all agree an updated Whitepaper is due
Matthew_DC [8:20 PM]
This is a community project and we are shaping pieces of it together as we continue to build. We have already made changes based on community feedback on many occasions.
So I would love to see someone post a proposal to reddit or even as an AIP at some point that we could discuss.
Jarunik [8:20 PM]
If you write a white paper it will be outdated soon :smile:
Solowatch [8:21 PM]
Well a V2 whitepaper shouldn’t be outdated soon
I don’t care about a V1 or V1.5 whitepaper lol
I want a whitepaper for V2 that’s clearly explaining all these concerns that the community has
arkenstone [8:22 PM]
:this:
Solowatch [8:23 PM]
I wrote a few questions down that I’ll post in here later today that @rob [ Ark Labs ] asked for. Please add to it if I missed anything once I do.
arkenstone [8:23 PM]
And I think now it's the time do it. Present it with full package on mainet launch.. (edited)
Solowatch [8:23 PM]
Or PM and I’ll add them before posting
mak [8:25 PM]
Anyways thanks for listening and responding @Matthew_DC. Some of us have been trying to discuss this with the ark team but didn't get much feedback until today.
arigard [8:25 PM]
Yeah +1
arkenstone [8:28 PM]
Alot of early investors are getting worried
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